[Liberator]

Aldo, you mean to tell me that if you were walking down the street and saw someone that was fixin to be murdered and had the power to save them you wouldn't?

[kasperl]

Originally posted by Liberator
Aldo, you mean to tell me that if you were walking down the street and saw someone that was fixin to be murdered and had the power to save them you wouldn't?

I told myself to stay out of these debates, since they suck up too much time. Bugger that.



Yeah, I'd save them. BUT: They mother/unborn child link is something completely different. Abortion for medical reasons such as danger to
the mother should never be outlawed, and abortion after rape follows the same logic in my mind. Abortion after failed contraception is in the middle here, but I am leaning bigtime towards the "boss about my own body" movement, were the mother has rights too. Most of the time, if the child is unwanted,(Understatement) it will not get the best youth possible. (/Understatement).

Aborting embryo's with, let's say, Huntington's (Please, do a google on the disease before replying)  seems like a good choice, because the child would suffer terribly later.

[NGTM-1R]

Aldo: come on, surely you can see. The practice of one's beliefs affects the rest of the world, that is a given.

And, funnily enough, telling them not to force their beliefs on you is attempting to force your beliefs on them.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Liberator
Aldo, you mean to tell me that if you were walking down the street and saw someone that was fixin to be murdered and had the power to save them you wouldn't?

And if you saw there was a treatment which could lead to the cure of Alzheimers, cancer, paralysis, heart disease which involved the use of otherwise discarded embryonic cells. you'd stop it?

You're trying to make it sound like there is a big factory farm of embryos being bred specifically for stem cells, which is complete and utter emotive bull**** - and you know it.

This has nothing to do with the issue of abortion - you want an analogy, how about the use of organs for transplant after a person dies?

[Ford Prefect]

I know you don't believe in any sort of spirituality and that's fine.

But I also know that there is more to our life experience in this universe than the infinitesial span of time between birth and physical death. Be it eternity as an ephemeral wraith, reincarnation or an eternal reward in either heaven or hell, we are far more than the sum of our parts. I feel it in the blackest darkest pit of my soul.

Well, Liberator, right there's the problem. I respect your belief, but there's a reason that I respect it: Nobody knows who's right. I happen to believe quite the opposite, that everything that happens in the universe is an accident of random chance and that what you see is what you get. Neither one of us has the greater claim to validity, and that's the point. Simply the fact that there are people who believe the way you do, the way I do, and every possible conclusion in between means that nobody can go making laws based on his or her spiritual philosophy.

[Tiara]

Can't we all just be happy for that woman who was cured from paralysis and *not* drag this into a religion debate?

I guess not.

[Rictor]

What she said.

[Liberator]

Originally posted by aldo_14
You're trying to make it sound like there is a big factory farm of embryos being bred specifically for stem cells, which is complete and utter emotive bull**** - and you know it.

Not yet maybe, but if a broadbased treatment is found and embryonic stem cells become a hot commodity, I can it happening.

[Krackers87]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
Aldo: come on, surely you can see. The practice of one's beliefs affects the rest of the world, that is a given.

And, funnily enough, telling them not to force their beliefs on you is attempting to force your beliefs on them.

Thats like saying my belief is to bash you upside the head, and you not allowing me to do so is infringing on my belief.

He can just practice his beliefs by him himself not having an abortion, although the need should never arise in the first place... i'd hope.

And Lib, that person bout to get murdered is not ****ing attached to the other persons insides, draining them of nutrients and being a general parasite, which babys are. Again that is like you bout to shoot me for bitting onto your arm, not letting go, and sucking the blood out of you slowly for a period of 9 months, you should have a right to put a bullet through my face, not be forced by law to allow me to stay there, causing you pain and threatening your well being.

[Tiara]

*grumbles*

[Kazan]

nothing can be considered a legal entity in the eyes of a court until it's an individual

ngtmr1 please continue to prove that you don't know what you're talking about

[Flipside]

Meh, well, in that case, isn't invading a country and deposing it's leader forcing your beliefs on people too? After all, Saddam was limiting these peoples choices with what he believed.

Saying 'We want you to obey Christian values and trying to stop us forcing them on you is breaching our rights' is a rather odd statement.

Anyway, good on the Woman, I'm glad this is doing some people some good already

Edit : In a way, it's like Pro-life people being against stem cell research. They would rather force several unwanted babies into the world than allow research to find ways to help the thousands of wanted babies that may suffer in the future. Pro-life is a very strong statement, but Life is not just Here and Now

[kasperl]

Originally posted by Liberator


Not yet maybe, but if a broadbased treatment is found and embryonic stem cells become a hot commodity, I can it happening.

Un-specialised stem cells = unlimeted growth using the right nutrients.

They only need to find the correct stemlines, and then they'll have enough for a long, long time. And when that ain't enough, they can get back to using left-overs. (No offence.)

[Jetmech Jr.]

Originally posted by Tiara
Can't we all just be happy for that woman who was cured from paralysis and *not* drag this into a religion debate?

I guess not.

I'm very happy for this person. I'm not happy that Liberator and his 'imaginary bearded friend' are trying to stop this kind of research from happening.

[Falcon]

Why am I getting a headache?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Liberator


Not yet maybe, but if a broadbased treatment is found and embryonic stem cells become a hot commodity, I can it happening.

Well, in the astonishingly unlikely event it does happen, then that would be dealt with accordingly by legislation.

Otherwise it's a bit like banning electricity because someone will eventually figure out how to make a taser.

[NGTM-1R]

Unfortunately for you, they have a right to try and force their beliefs on you. It's called free speech. You have a right to try and force your beliefs on them too. But only to a point. Go construct an extremist version of my argument if you wish, but that's a logical fallacy and I refuse to play that game.

I understand far better then you seem to realize, Kazan. You are attempt to change Liberator's or Mongoose's mind on the subject, so that their beliefs match your own, yes? Yet they do not want that. Thus, you are attempting to force your beliefs on them.

Is that simple enough for you to understand?

[aldo_14]

How can you possibly debate a subject without showing your own beliefs?  It's impossible - you have to state both your own belief or opinion, and demonstrate why you disagree with the other person.

In that case, any arguement can be said to be forcing your opinion on someone.

[NGTM-1R]

Originally posted by aldo_14
How can you possibly debate a subject without showing your own beliefs?  It's impossible - you have to state both your own belief or opinion, and demonstrate why you disagree with the other person.

In that case, any arguement can be said to be forcing your opinion on someone.

Exactly. I am not trying to prove anyone is not trying to force their beliefs on anyone else. I am trying to prove Kazan's charges ludicrous.

[Grey Wolf]

Originally posted by Falcon
Why am I getting a headache?

Probably due to this boards high percentage of turning any topic into a religious or political debate.