[Mr. Vega]

Lib: Again, you fail to explain the existence of the all powerful being, so at the moment your "theory" is far more fantastic than evolution. You're just compressing a 20 paragraph explanation into the words "divine will". Just because a process can be complicated does not make it untrue, you're going to need a better arguement than that.

Ford: Yes, mutations are random. But you make the mistake of thinking that nonrandom results can only come from intelligence. When one organism has traits that will cause it to be able to reproduce more than the other, then the limited amount of available rescources means that organism will force the others into extinction. The thing that "selects" a particular organism is just a hostile environment - it creates difficulties for a living thing attempting to survive and reproduce, so the ones with traits better suited to the environment survive more often than the ones that do not.

[Kamikaze]

Originally posted by Thrilla

I know gravity pulls objects toward a larger mass, and it is proven (see liberators anvil) but evolution of life from a big bang, proteins and the like has not been because A) no substantial proof has been found to say its scientific fact, B) not enough scientists are willing to make this huge act of faith to believe in it.  

Well, you already put an awful lot of faith in science. Why single out evolution?

While gravity obviously exists in some fashion and we can predict its effects even it's far from being explained perfectly. Scientists are still trying to figure out how the heck it fits into the quantum mechanical model of the world with the other 3 "fundamental forces" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_interactions) that govern the world. There're theories and stuff about gravitons (particles that create gravity).

Even the concept of mass is not concrete. You think all particles have "inherent" mass that isn't caused by anything? Scientists theorize mass is actually caused by a field generated by a higgs-boson particle "pulling" on other particles (http://www.phy.uct.ac.za/courses/phy400w/particle/higgs1.htm).

So you're simplifying matters and trivializing science so you can conveniently ignore bits of it for your religion. You convince yourself that you're a sceptic, but you're not doing a good job of being one.

[Ford Prefect]

Mr. Vega: All I'm saying is that the cause is random. Because this was a religious discussion, I assumed this to be the relevant part.

[PeachE]

Originally posted by Liberator
A chemical chain forms where there was none before since time immemorial, said chain joins with another exactly as required to form an ammino acid, that amino acid joins with other, different amino acids to form the basics of life, a burst of enegy at just the right moment in time initiates the life process of the earliest life form(singular)

That lifeform somehow lives long enough to procreate, it's spawn live and spread, some mutate in a way that allows them to survive longer and spawn twice, it's spawn live and spread. Somehow, we don't know, they make the jump from single celled very simple lifeforms to a dual-celled form, eventually over the untold millions of years the mutations have added up and now we have jellyfish(the simplest multi-celluar lifeform on Earth).  The jellyfish(which is carniverous) is king and eats quite literally every thing, eventually it makes the jump from what is basically a stomach with tentacles to insects and fish, eventually devloping into reptiles and mammals.  By this time we're up to about 65 million years ago and we're talking about quadrillions(at least) of beneficial mutations have added up and everythings fine.  Somehow some amazing sequence of mutations occur in rapid succession and put a single species on the road to intelligence which leads to us. ...

well, i'm doubtful that evolution in and of itself began with the birth of the amino acid, but other than that.. yeah, that's just about right.

[Rictor]

Lib: the way I see it, its very simple.

That which is fittest always survives, by definition. Whatever survives, that is obviously what was the strongest/fastest/smartest or whatever. So believing in evolution is no more than believing that the fastest runner wins the race.

Its a natural process, so yes, over millions of years you are going to see drastic changes. You have to account for the cumulative effect here, becuase if you just put a fish and a human next to each other, you're going to say "no way, they're not related" . But if you factor in  millions of years, gradual changes stack up. Sort of like if you see a person all the time, you don't notice ther slight ageing, but if you see them once, and then again 15 years later, you're going to notice a big difference.,

[Krackers87]

Originally posted by Thrilla
Typical you attack irrelevant factors of the example instead of understanding the analogy.

Yes! It IS different from life! Its sooo much simpler than life! And you think that a big bang somehow caused life to form from protiens is makes more sense?

Another thing, can you explain where life comes from? Can scientists explain what gives something life, and why it disappears when something dies? The physical form of the being is still there, why isnt it animate? Life comes from somewhere, and it is something not physical, ie. a spirit of some sort that is part of the being and separates itself from the physical when the being is no longer capable of fuctioning.

To make this easy to understand, i shall write in a numbered point response

1. You are stupid

2. You are made of proteins, tiny molecules of mater, that link together, to form larger molecules that work together. Like a pentium made of transistors. And science has proven that, without a doubt.

3. Scientists do explain what gives things life, see there are these things called cells, each one is like a tiny machine, of which your body is composed of billions. All these cells work together to create, you. Now there are these special cells which you unfortunately are lacking in, called brain cells, which connect together to form the "processor" of your body. Whenever you think, move a arm, breathe, heart beats, etc... your brain ("processor") fires off comands to the other parts of your body and tells them what to do. But all your thoughts and sense of life is contained within those cells.

4. Now one someone dies, their cells detoriate and break apart, actualy its more their cells detoriate causing them to die. now this is why when you die, thus your brain cells cease to exist, ytou are no longer alive. To go back to the computer refrence, this is the equivalent of driving a nail through the processor.

     OmG!1 WtF!1 Whi wontzz my computah turnz on?!?!111

    Because the little bits and parts that make it think are broken.


Hopefuly this answers youre incredibly ignorant questions.

[Ford Prefect]

All questions are either ignorant or rhetorical.

[Grey Wolf]

Please don't tell me this thread has degraded from insulting the intelligence of my peers to "Yet Another Evolution vs. Creationism Thread™".....

[.::Tin Can::.]

How did this topic change? The first page was a pack of newspaper idiots disagreeing on Cultural and Political ideas, and now I see stuff about organisms and evolutionary stuff...

What did I miss?

[Ford Prefect]

The principle of evolution applies to conversations as well as to life.

[.::Tin Can::.]

Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
Please don't tell me this thread has degraded from insulting the intelligence of my peers to "Yet Another Evolution vs. Creationism Thread™".....

You read my mind.

[Thrilla]

That lifeform somehow lives long enough to procreate, it's spawn live and spread, some mutate in a way that allows them to survive longer and spawn twice, it's spawn live and spread. Somehow, we don't know, they make the jump from single celled very simple lifeforms to a dual-celled form, eventually over the untold millions of years the mutations have added up and now we have jellyfish(the simplest multi-celluar lifeform on Earth). The jellyfish(which is carniverous) is king and eats quite literally every thing, eventually it makes the jump from what is basically a stomach with tentacles to insects and fish, eventually devloping into reptiles and mammals. By this time we're up to about 65 million years ago and we're talking about quadrillions(at least) of beneficial mutations have added up and everythings fine. Somehow some amazing sequence of mutations occur in rapid succession and put a single species on the road to intelligence which leads to us. ...  

Since when have you ever heard of a beneficial mutation, or one that somehow seemed not a typical mutation. When people are born with mutations, they are usually an extra finger, no ears, no arms, a messed up face, no legs, extra toes, but not wings or anything that would even resemble it. Mutations are also rare and never have mutations led one species into another. The lines separating the species are very thick. Even if scientists were able to make a hybrid animal, it would be sterile.

The natural way of the universe is deterioration, like the earth eventually slowing down its orbit, the sun in a few billion theoretical years going out, magnetic fields detereorating.

[Bobboau]

or they are less likely to develop heart deises or cancer, just becase you have it fixed in your head that mutation meas arm-growing-out-of-ass doesn't mean thats what happens. you've surely known of some kid that turned out smarter than there parents, at least to some degree, that could have been due to a mutation.

the reason why we haven't been able to produce a new species is becase it takes about 500,000 generations. it would take about a thousand years with the source animal totaly seperated.

[Kamikaze]

Originally posted by Thrilla

Since when have you ever heard of a beneficial mutation, or one that somehow seemed not a typical mutation. When people are born with mutations

As pointed out earlier bacteria have evolved to resist various drugs. For example, many things are resistant to penicilin now. That's a very, very beneficial mutation.

The lines separating the species are very thick.

Which is why someone pointed out earlier that evolution works over a very long time.

[Janos]

Originally posted by Thrilla


Since when have you ever heard of a beneficial mutation, or one that somehow seemed not a typical mutation. When people are born with mutations, they are usually an extra finger, no ears, no arms, a messed up face, no legs, extra toes, but not wings or anything that would even resemble it. Mutations are also rare and never have mutations led one species into another. The lines separating the species are very thick. Even if scientists were able to make a hybrid animal, it would be sterile.

The natural way of the universe is deterioration, like the earth eventually slowing down its orbit, the sun in a few billion theoretical years going out, magnetic fields detereorating.

BULL****.

Mutations are copying errors in DNA or RNA. Their severeness varies, from a single amino acid pair being replaced with another to entire sequence being disrupted, and badly. It does not result in extra fingers and legs, unless huge amounts of genome are interrupted. Mutations are really common, you know why stuff like DNA analyzation works in crime investigations? Yeah. Read stuff about mutations before shouting off such uninformed BS.

And the lines separating the species are not thick. I don't know where you have learned your cladistics, systematics and taxonomy. Marsh Reed Warbler and Blyth's Reed Warbler hybridize and their offspring is often fertile. So do Greater and Lesser Spotted Eagle. There is the entire ring species thing, which defies your "SPECIES ARE CLEAR AS DAY" -opinion.

[an0n]

Put simply: Anything resembling creationism (or any other whacked-out, fundie ideals that are generally opposed to what I know for a goddamn fact is right) is complete bull**** and you're an evil and spiteful person for not accepting that.

[Kosh]

Why the hell are we talking about evolution and creationism in this thread?

[Bobboau]

education system, that's actualy the reason why we can't just agree to disagree, one of us has to be presented as fact in public schools.

[an0n]

The factual one would be the obvious choice....

[Bobboau]

you'd think that, wouldn't you...