[DIO]

Originally posted by TrashMan
Shouldn't a laser have nigh infinite range then too? Shouldn't ALL weapons have nigh infinite range?

And what's up with that "you need the Maxim to survive" thing?
I NEVER used it and I passed FS2 and all difficulties several times.

It really doesn't make any sense for a fighter to have such a long-range weapon, while a capships doesn't.
Hell, even a todays smallest sedstroyer has weaponry with greater range than any FS2 ship!!!LOL

You must use your imagination to comfort yourself, like think "the energy of the laser decays quickly" or something.

[Woolie Wool]

Originally posted by Raa
They need to steal more Shivan technology to make another hades.

The Kayser and beam cannons are stolen Shivan technologies. The only thing Shivan about the Hades was the weaponry.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by TrashMan
WTF are you taking about? Putting Maxims on a wcapship? where did you get that from?
I said FIGHTERS with NORMAL weapons (maxims too, but with normal range.. that range is a fluke, just like a Myrmodon carring Helios bombs).

The idea that someone would say "Poof! The Maxim no longer has a range of 3km because I say so" was so stupid that I didn't even consider the possibility that you meant that. I was assuming you meant putting fighter weapons on battleships because that was the only argument I could see that made the remotest bit of sense. My apologies for not realising the sheer depths that you'd go to in order to win the argument.

While I'm here the Maxim is not the only FS2 weapon with a really long range. Is the Treb also an imaginary weapon too?

Originally posted by TrashMan
That's just the point. A BB isn't cannon. Neither is a missile corvette, or any other possible ship class that we haven't explicitly seen.
So are you saying that no one should ever make any other ships except cruisers, corvettes and destroyers? That's just bogus.

As above I was refering to putting Uber weapons on capships when I said canon. Now I realise that you have even less respect for canon than I though.

Fine. In Trashmanverse where up is down and left is right and you've completely rewritten FS2 canon in order to make it work the battleship is not vulnerable to fighter attack.

In the real FS2 universe however it's a giant target with "shoot me for lots of bonus kill points" written on it.

[TrashMan]

What have you been smoking today? Must be good!


As you said, the TREB is a canon weapon, granted. So why not put it on the capships turrets? 40 missile turrets with trebs all shooting at the player! Whippe!

But anyway..it seems that you are constantly stretching my words around. I would appriciate it if you cut it.

Just couse I want to make a BB doesn't mean I have no respect for canon. In fact, I prolly respect it more than you do.

I never said BB's woud (or should) be invulnerbale to fighter/bomber attacks, I only said they would be far less vulnerable than destroyers (Just the destroyers mind you.. not their fightercover).

If a typical destroyer has 20 aa capable turrets, then a battleships should have a t least 40.

[Nuclear1]

I'm going to step in here and backup kara, 'cuz he knows what he's talking about.

For one, the Treb is never mounted on a capital ship turret. Why? The Treb is not intended to take up an entire turret on a capital ship. Trebs are made to be used by bomber interceptors that are deployed to protect a capital ship, allowing the Treb more effective use than if fired from a turret.

And 40 AAA turrets? That's just... overkill. Even the Aeolus had two SGreens on the front end of the ship. While those turrets are still easy to counter (hint: Treb), that's just stupid to have a ship nearly twice as large as a destroyer be bristling with anti-fighter death. It's ineffective. As seen usually, big ships are usually put into production for one primary reason: killing other big ships (read: Colossus, Orion, Hatshepsut).

And the Helios was definitely a programming error on the part of Volition. The Myrmidon, which is designed to be a successor to the Ulysses, is able to carry almost every anti-fighter weapon except the Harpoon, but able to carry a bomb that can kill destroyers in several volleys? That's called a mistake.

[deep_eyes]

um and most of modern beam weaponry is based on shivan technology remember? doesnt anyone remember the intels lol!

[TrashMan]

40 AAA turrets?
I said AA capable - that means any turret that can shoot at fighters (Terran turret, Flak or AAAf)

And since any ship I, or anyone else make will not be canon (maby the ship type will), I really fail to see the point of this descussion, since nothing I make will EVER be canon.


Allso, in the campaign I'm making, fighters aren't going to have such a redicolous advanatage (Treb will have a Bomb flag, so it can be shot down..and the Maxim..I'll either cripple it's range, or give capships something with equal range)
Capships in FS2 are still to weak in my oppinion.
I mean, a 2.5km long high-tech warship that has 15 weak turrets!?!?!? Who are you kidding?

Eh..don't worry..the Shivans won't have a BB.

[Moonsword]

Interesting...

[karajorma]

Originally posted by TrashMan
But anyway..it seems that you are constantly stretching my words around. I would appriciate it if you cut it.

Just couse I want to make a BB doesn't mean I have no respect for canon. In fact, I prolly respect it more than you do.

I've already explained above that the fact you want to make a battleship isn't what means you have no respect for canon. I'll say it again because you apparently didn't get it last time. The fact that you decided that not only does the maxim not have a range of 3km in your universe but also try to use that as a reason why I am wrong is what means you have no respect for canon.

Putting uber weapons on your ship is the lack of respect for canon I thought you had. Arbitrarily changing the range of a canon weapon because you want to win an argument is the even bigger one you have.

The maxim has a range of 3km. For it to be a mistake by [V] as you seem to believe it would have to have been missed by the table designers, the mission designers and the playtesters. Do not hold up the myrmidon/helios thing up for comparison as there is no situation in the entire main campaign where you can actually put the helios on a myrmidon anyway so it was very easy for them to have missed.  

Do not even think of daring to claim you have more respect for canon while spreading such herasy.
 

Originally posted by TrashMan
I never said BB's woud (or should) be invulnerbale to fighter/bomber attacks, I only said they would be far less vulnerable than destroyers (Just the destroyers mind you.. not their fightercover).

No you didn't. Had you said that I'd have have made a completely different argument because it is obvious to anyone not dead from the neck up that without fighter cover both are equally vulnerable to long range maxim style attacks while the battleship is obviously less vulnerable to short ranged attacks or bombing runs.
 My whole complaint was in the way you refused to admit that a battleship without fighter escort was a sitting duck.
 In fact you have continued to argue that a battleship could destroyer enemy fighters at maxim range. (A comment that only makes sense when you LATER tell people that you don't mean 3km by that.
 That's not me twisting your words. That's you failing to make yourself clear. If you meant 1km say 1km. Don't reduce the maxim's range to 1km in your head and expect us all to realise that's what you mean telepathically.
 If I made an error in assuming you meant putting bigger weapons on battleships when you said that they could deal with fighters at maxim range that's because I assumed you knew what maxim range was. The thought that someone would simply change the range of a canon weapon and not say so didn't even occur to me.

Anyway you've finally managed to say that the battleship is vulnerable to fighters which is what I wanted so I'll leave it here.

[Goober5000]

Should I close this?

[Nuclear1]

You don't have to. I think we can try to keep it civil, but just in the event that it does degenerate further, I'll PM you. Kara, Trash, that means you two. Could we just for once have a decent discussion that doesn't fall into this flaming pit?

As for Trashman: I've only got one suggestion for your post. When you mentioned adding the "Bomb" tag to the Treb, that seems a little unreasonable. Maybe just lessen its Subsystem Damage factor instead? It would make still a viable weapon against bombers (which it was intended for anyway), but it wouldn't be so ridiculously easy to take a capital's bite away.

[NGTM-1R]

The bomb flag wouldn't really help much: the Stiletto II has it too, but it's very rare for a Stiletto to get shot down. They move too quickly.

[Woolie Wool]

Allso, in the campaign I'm making, fighters aren't going to have such a redicolous advanatage (Treb will have a Bomb flag, so it can be shot down..and the Maxim..I'll either cripple it's range, or give capships something with equal range)
Capships in FS2 are still to weak in my oppinion.
I mean, a 2.5km long high-tech warship that has 15 weak turrets!?!?!? Who are you kidding?

I kind of disagree. Capships shouldn't be big targets, but fighting one should not be excessively difficult or unfair. Besides, large ships in FS carry all those fighters for a reason.

Eh..don't worry..the Shivans won't have a BB.

The Sathanas will do fine. Why do you call this class battleship and not juggernaut?

[FireCrack]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
The bomb flag wouldn't really help much: the Stiletto II has it too, but it's very rare for a Stiletto to get shot down. They move too quickly.

atilettos are always being shot down for me.

[Woolie Wool]

Maybe you should stop trying to fire from maximum range and get closer to the target.

[FireCrack]

well if you're close nothing gets shot down more-or less negating the argument.

[Woolie Wool]

What it really does is show that you have no basis for your argument because you are complaining about a weapon you don't use properly.

[FireCrack]

What it realy shows it that you dont have any idea what's being talked about. We are talking about enabling the bomb tag for the treb to weaken it against caphips. Range is the treb's primary advantage.

If you add the bomb tag it will weaken the trb becasue you are now forced to used it at short range.

Relocate.

[Kie99]

Why on Earth would you want to weaken the treb? Why not just up the difficulty?

[Mongoose]

Originally posted by willy_principal
i agree with that.............and the GTVA knows that.....so they cancelled the destruction of the Nereid...(which was going to collapse the Vega-Capella node)
(i think...)

Everything in Capella was destroyed...and everything that enters there will be burnt in seconds...

I know this was much earlier in the topic, but I did want to clear this up.  The Nereid was sent through the Vega-Capella node to collapse it, even after the supernova.  I'm sure that, for all the GTVA knew, the Shivans could have had ships capable of withstanding the forces of the supernova.  Heck, we never even see the Sathanes that remained behind actually get destroyed; who knows, maybe they had strong enough armor to make it?