[Flipside]

To a degree, I agree, hoever, it also needs to be taken into account that the phrase 'Bush is a maniacal bastard' is not the phrase 'all Americans are maniacal Bastards'.

That sort of reasoning infuriates me, it's like telling someone who is black that they are a pillock and being accused of racism, it's nothing to do with their colour and everything to do with the fact they are a pillock.

Patriotism is all well and good, but believe it or not, an insult to one American is not an insult to all Americans etc. This is the big bad world now, please leave your Ego at the reception desk.

[vyper]

And bring a suitable recepticle.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

then why do i see america this and US that?  or "americans"?  it's an insult to all americans when 31 americans die in a war that they may or may not agree with, and people decide to laugh.  It's an insult to all americans when we lose a space shuttle, and people decide to laugh.  

It's an insult to all those of christian faith when they see "****in christians"  you will of course note that there was no qualifier for that one, just all lumped in together.

and we don't even need to get into the racial slurs.  I think those got covered in one of anon's threads.

and this isn't the big bad world, this is a place on the internet built for freespace.  leave your own ego.

[Flipside]

Don't be in such a rush to take offence, you really are a wonderful example of what I am talking about.

I've heard enough about Muslims to make no comment whatsoever on the religious side of things.

I don't actually hear much in the way of racial slurs on here at all to be honest, the odd sarcastic comment, but I suppose it all depends on how you look at it.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

the fact is, this is the kind of bull**** that is running our new people off.  if you take offense at that, maybe it's because somewhere you know that you are one of the people who are doing it.  the older members here are supposed to be helping HLP grow, and the constant *****ing about this isn't helping.  not when new people leave because of it.

everyday there is a new "let's ***** about america" thread.  How many do we need?  it's the theme of Hard light.  a place for everything.  it has become a place to *****.

[Swamp_Thing]

For all intended purposes, when we say "americans" is not a reference to ALL americans. However, the last US election has given us grounds to believe that MOST americans are behind Bush and his maniacal enterprises, and thus are equally warrented for criticism.
If the majority of americans feel they are being wrongfully criticized, they should have made that perfectlly clear in the November elections. But they did not.
You made your bed, now you have to sleep in it. Don´t blame the rest of the world for the bumps in the bed YOU made.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

who's blaming the world....i'm just tired of hearing the anti american bull****.  the anti christian bull****, the racial slurs, all of it.  Everyday there is something new that allows people to ***** about the same **** that they have been *****ing about for a long time.  every single day, someone has to post a new *****ing thread.  

when it comes to the point that we are running off new people because of these things, then something needs to be done about it.  This is HLP, it was made for freespace and a place for us to come together, i see these actions as something that is tearing it down.  

Rapid forum is a free service.  Build a new forum there and ***** til your heart's content, but quit doing things in here that are running off new people.

[vyper]

Look, how do you think I feel when your countrymen treat Tony Blair as being truly representative of the opinions of the people in the UK? Pretty ****ing pissed off.

Besides which, if I feel the need to racially stereotype you it's my right to do so until such a time as my already semi-facist government bans it. That's the price of freedom.

[Swamp_Thing]

I don´t think HLP is loosing members on account of discussion. Hell, look at the new members list! We have had more people joining in the last couple of months than the whole time i´ve been here put together!
It is fair to say however, that most people here do share the same view when american policy is concerned. To me, that shows us just what the world thinks about this subject. Bush has divided the planet. And closing your eyes to it won´t make it go away.

Anyway, the idea behind this thread was NOT to start a flame war, it was just to inform people of the latest incident in Iraq. And to start a discussion about wether the chopper was shot down, or it crashed down. So many choppers have "crashed" in Iraq that its getting anecdotal. Either they need to start buying other choppers, or admit to the truth that they were shot down.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

i agree, people are joining.  and some people are being run off.  I absolutely disagree with censorship, so please don't think that i am in any way advocting it, but there is a time and place, and i don't think that HLP is the place.  News is news, thank you.  But this thread quickly turned into a bash america thread.  "They are dropping like flies, literally!"  that simply converys your joy over "the good news that yet more people have died".   I am not the only one to see it that way  

On these boards it is almost criminal to be pro american and a christian.  That's where my problem is.  Is this the message we want to send to our new people, that the lawlessness of HLP that Derek Smart spoke of is in fact a reality?

[Styxx]

Well, while some of the comments are distasteful, I don't think any of them can be regarded as flaming. Maybe flame-baiting, but I don't know. We don't really like to close threads because some users don't like the opinions being expressed in them, when there is no flaming, spamming and the content is not illegal.

So it's more a cultural thing than anything else. There isn't much the staff can do about it, short of censuring certain subjects.

[Swamp_Thing]

Actually, the "dropping like flies" expression was sarcastic. The chopper dropped from the sky, just as a fly. So many choppers haver crashed latelly, that it begs disbelief.
It wasn´t meant to convey my personnal opinion on it. It was just sarcasm.
But let´s drop this issue. I don´t want, nor have i ever wanted to create flame wars. Don´t take my personnal opinion on the matter as an insult, take it for what it is: an opinion. Sometimes i´m blunt, but no one can accuse me of being two-faced, i say it as i see it , and as i feel it.

So, if by any way you or others felt insulted by my blunt words, i apologize. It was not my intention.
Ok?

[ShadowWolf_IH]

i didn't think that we were in a flame war.

i AM angry, but I am simply angry about the fact that we have become so complacent in how we do things and what we say, that we disregard the new people when they come in.  If everyday a post was made that was against what you thought and believed, and everyday there was a bandwagon on that thread, how welcome would you feel?  

let me say this, and just take it for what it's worth ok?

I voted for Bush.  Not because i think that he is a great president, but because i saw him as the lesser of two evils.  Given the choice of eating beans or broccoli, i will eat the broccoli, because my dislike for it is not as great as my dislike for beans.  There are of people who are in my shoes.  

The war, i support getting sadam out of power.  Fully, i also support our guys trying to keep the peace while the Iraqi people set up a government.  I don't think that the big problem is them setting up a government, i think that the big problem is that "American agressors" are once again on thier soil.  I honestly believe that the Iraqi people don't care who is in power, as long as it up to them, and they lead themselves.  I realy do believe that all they want is for us to go home.  And if that is what they want, i support that.

I believed in getting sadam out fo power, but i believe it's time to bring our boys home.  Or start pulling out right after the election.

how's that?

[Skippy]

Deleted, nevermind

[vyper]

Hows this: you should never have been there in the first place. It's not the US's job to unilaterally stop "rogue" nations who are already under sanction from the UN.  And don't give me any tired bull**** about how ineffective the UN is - it's ineffective because your nation (and mine in truth) weilds it's veto like a large knob raping everything that could possibly give the UN and other non-profit multinational organisations any true power and influence.

[Swamp_Thing]

Well, that explains why you got so worked up over almost nothing. I guess i was just the feather that tilted the scale.
But i ask you this:
You said you believed in overthrowing Saddam, right?
Now answer me this. If Saddam was the american president, would you like it that France (for example) invaded the US, and dropped bombs on your family? And arrested you without lawyer or trial for years on end? And subjected you to the same torture that you were supposed to be getting rid of? What would you do if your child got his arms and legs amputated and burnt to a crisp?
And you had to eat rats to feed yourself because the food warehouses were destroyed? And you had to drink the water of rain pools in the street? And that you had to pay 100 times more for gas, when your country is swimming in the stuff? And that your children have to study on candle light, because you still don´t have electricity?
How would you feel? Would you cheer the french invaders? Offer them flowers? Or would you do the obvious thing and fight to protect your home and country?

[ShadowWolf_IH]

of course i wouldn't like it.  no one does, which is why i think that our boys need to come home.  i also think that if we had finished the job in 91, well, what can i say except hitler/poland/39?  I think that we should have stopped him in 91, we should have rolled into bagdad and taken him out.  remember, that was about him invading kuwait.  the objective there was to get him out of kuwait, and we did thta, then helped kuwait, and went home.  That's why i am all for getting him out of power.  We know that he will do a land grab in a heartbeat.  we also know that no one else has the balls to stand up to him and fight.

i don't like the fact that civilians were killed and are now fighting against us as we try to liberate them from a dictator, and try tpo keep peace while another government is set up.  for what it's worth swamp, you don't need to explain the horrors of war to me, i've lived them.  either way, war is a terrible thing, and i would fight to get you people to go home, i'm not saying anything against that, hell all that they want is for us to go home.  That's all i want now.

and vyper out of everything that you said, i agree with one thing that you didn't say but inferred....there should be no nation with veto powers in the UN.

[Skippy]

Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
and vyper out of everything that you said, i agree with one thing that you didn't say but inferred....there should be no nation with veto powers in the UN.

Or probably only one, bu not the US
A country with another vision of "liberty"

[ShadowWolf_IH]

none.

[Swamp_Thing]

You didn´t answer my question. You said you wouldn´t like it, but what would YOU do?
And if your answer is "i would fight", why don´t you give iraqis similar rights? Why aren´t they allowed to fight the invader? Why should they just take it up the arse and shut up? Aren´t they equally entitled to fight for what they believe in?

You know, i was all for the overthrowning of Saddam. But NOT like that. Bush has a dangerous taste for blood. He doesn´t think about exausting diplomatic options, he jumps on the war wagon right away. Do you think it´s normal that a president invades 2 sovereign nations on his first term, and is already targeting 2 or 3 more for his second term as president? You see that as the actions of a normal man? I don´t. Nor does 90% of the world´s population.