Author Topic: Nano Jumping is Stupid  (Read 10285 times)

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Offline StratComm

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I'd agree with that assesment if it weren't so obvious that exit coordinates are extremely precise over long distances.  If they are accurate to within a constant factor then short-range jumps within that factor would indeed be useless.  However, we know that the absolute maximum "off target" radius is 8km (the Psamtic upon discovery of the second Knossos) and that was considered extreme, and as close as ships jump in formation, I doubt it's even close to that long.  The explanation I would rather use is that subspace drives simply have a minimum range; while it might be easy to target an exit point, getting the drives revved up to enter subspace and then precisely exiting it too short a time later would be impossible.  If that makes any sense...
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline FireCrack

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^ mabye minimum range, mabye they are only linear meaning a ship cant "turn" in subspace (once it's in theres a set line it must emerge on)


actualy that linear thing probably wouldnt work, becasue it would make subspace tracking stupidly easy.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2005, 02:48:53 pm by 2073 »
actualy, mabye not.
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Offline pyro-manic

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Ah, but remember the first mission of FS2? Command tells the Psamtik that it has vectored the Belisarius' course to the Psamtik's location, which implies that it is possible to predict the path of a vessel through subspace. And subspace tracking technology was found on Altair in the great war anyway - it was used to track the Lucifer into the Sol jump node...
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Offline Charismatic

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I would have to agree with stratcomm, there must be a minimum time of subspace warp before you can be released, otherwise its just like a high power\speed engine, that hauls caps around quickly.
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Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by StratComm
I'd agree with that assesment if it weren't so obvious that exit coordinates are extremely precise over long distances.  If they are accurate to within a constant factor then short-range jumps within that factor would indeed be useless.  However, we know that the absolute maximum "off target" radius is 8km (the Psamtic upon discovery of the second Knossos) and that was considered extreme, and as close as ships jump in formation, I doubt it's even close to that long.  The explanation I would rather use is that subspace drives simply have a minimum range; while it might be easy to target an exit point, getting the drives revved up to enter subspace and then precisely exiting it too short a time later would be impossible.  If that makes any sense...


That is a possibility but I wouldn't agree with the logic you used to say that Icefire is wrong.  My view of the matter is a combination of the two.

I see it as all being a matter of energy. A  ship exiting subspace will take the lowest energy route out. This explains why ships which jump out in formation also reappear in formation. The lead ship punches a hole in realspace as it exits and the other ships simply follow it through.

If you try to make a nano jump however you specifically have to tell the computers to ignore the lowest energy route (since the lowest energy route is the hole in realspace you just used to get into subspace). This limits the distance at which you can jump back in at (basically preventing nano jumps. You'd simply reappear where you started!).

Over a long distance you can jump in more accurately because it is highly unlikely that anything will be generating a subspace hole at the same frequency that your ship is using.

The fact that the GTVA knew the exact angle that the NTF capships would be taking out of the Epsilon Pegasi node in King's Gambit is supporting evidence for the theory. Ships can go into subspace at any angle. The come out down the lowest energy slope. IF you can predict what that will be you can be ready for them.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2005, 03:43:02 pm by 340 »
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Offline TrashMan

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Originally posted by Mongoose
I always wondered how the Iceni managed that insta-jump.  Was it some inherent property of that ship, like quickly-recharging jump drives, or did the crew just divert a massive surge of power to jump engines in a desperate attempt to make the fast escape?


Helloooo?

The Iceni jumped trough the Knossos. It's a jump-gate, you don't need charged jumpdrives for it!:D
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Offline Kie99

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That is the most inane post I have ever seen.  The knossos creates a jump node, it doesn't magically syncronize your ship with subspace, or get your speed up to about 135 M/S
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Offline karajorma

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Kietotheworld's got a good point. If the Knossos worked that way all the other NTF fighters would have probably followed the Iceni rather that hanging about fighting the Colossus.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Actually, they ran the other way once the Iceni escaped.

And considering that Ulysses wing was in-mission for very little time (I'd have to check, but I'm almost certain it's less then a minute.). that kinda flies in the face of power-based arguments. If fighters, old fighters at that, can jump in and then jump out again in under a minute, power requirements for insystem jumps can't be the factor holding them back.
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Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r
Actually, they ran the other way once the Iceni escaped.

And considering that Ulysses wing was in-mission for very little time (I'd have to check, but I'm almost certain it's less then a minute.). that kinda flies in the face of power-based arguments. If fighters, old fighters at that, can jump in and then jump out again in under a minute, power requirements for insystem jumps can't be the factor holding them back.


They didn't follow the Iceni because they lacked intersystem jump engines. Nothing to do with power levels.

However if Trashman is correct and the Iceni didn't need power in its jump engines to use the knossos because the knossos bypasses the need to have working jump engines somehow then the question has to be why on Earth the NTF fighters couldn't use it regardless of whether they had intersystem jump engines or not.

As for power levels it's obvious in the game that fighters don't take long to recharge their jump engines. This is no doubt cause of their small mass to power output ratios.

Besides if power levels following a jump are not an issue how do you explain the numerous times when a ship hasn't jumped out even under heavy attack? Kings Gambit is a good example of this. Those NTF ships took Mjolnir fire for a couple of minutes before jumping out. Why would any sane captain do that? Also why don't ships attempting to leave a system jump in at the node and then straight back out again?
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Offline aldo_14

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Well, the NTF fighters wouldn't have anywhere to go, though; IIRC the Iceni doesn't have a fighterbay.

However, the command briefs clearly state the Knossos is a stabilisation device, not a 'jumpgate'.

 

Offline Flaser

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I think kara's statement is true to a degree - ships follow the energy minimum principle in subspace too - however it doesn't mean that by putting in exessive energy you can't alter the exit point.

However I think generally it is a very good approach - and has a bit of scientific validity to it -, since it can explain a lot of things if we examine :V: n-dimensional techno-babble with the energy minimum as one of our principles.

Subspace is defined as moving among the n-th dimension of normal space - so actually you're moving in space just like ours, except not among x, y, z or any combination of the conventional axis, but in THAT way that's still perindicular to all directions you may come up with.

It is accepted that the presence of a gravitational field makes entering and moving in subspace easier - hence the lower energy treshold on intrasystem jumps.

This is also the reason why you're often relativly close to planets - their gravitic field adds an even greater kick to the relation.Kara's application of the energy minimum principle superbly works with this:
In a gravitic field you have negative potential energy, this energy is the same ammount that the gravitic field's work produced.
By forcing the field to actually output energy - and lower your own - you can reduce the energy nivo of the jump tremendously.

I think that gravity still affects you in subspace and objects in real space also simultaniously exist in subspace too.
The Psamtik's misjump - thanks to the Sath's presence - is good canon evidence.

Therefore it's not like two separate universes that overlap in certain places.
Normal space and subspace are one and the same.
Moving in subspace is actually moving in finer the structure of space-time that normally results in miniscule distortions only detectable on the quantum scale.

So any object in real space will also appear in subspace too. However this doesn't prevent you from seemingly (from real space) going through it. In fact you go by it.

Imagine a ball - we live on its surface that is normal space - however under cetain circumstances its normally solid walls become gasesous and we can burrow through the ball.
An observer in normal space who can monitor our progress (SS-tracking?) may see us go faster that the speed of light, since all he sees is our trace on the surface of the ball and can't measure our direct course inside the ball.

OK, but if that's so there are things inside the ball and on its surface and its pretty much the two-worlds model? Right?
The ball is a good enough representation for the outside observer, however it doesn't properly describe the structure of space time. We don't puch a hole in it even if it appears to be so from elsewhere. We just move along inside it in a different manner.

From the internal observer, each and every single object in real space will be present in subspace too.

How can we achieve that? The moebius came to my mind as the object with similar qualities. Its dual nature provided the inspiration for my explanation:

When I'm moving on a piece of paper I can move 2 diretions.
Imgine that the paper has bump in it.
When I enter and go on the bump I still percieve space as a 2 dimensional thing, however since I actually move in 3D I will realise that although I move as usual my movement won't properly correlate with my progress - distances will grow and I will be freaked out as suddenly my own speed seems to reduce and space itself expand around me.

Subspace works exactly like that except it does the opposite of that effect - space seems to shrink and close in on itself. We live warped piece of paper and when I move in subspace I force the paper to flaten out and shrink.

Why is this explanation any better that the burrowed through ball?
In the ball model I suddenly change my very nature from moving in a semi 2D manner to pure 3D - my whole perception of space changes. Which isn't the case with subspace.
The ball model also forces the universe to have a great concentraion among its "normal dimensions", while IMHO it is much more likely that it has a similar distribution pattern along all dimension.

Finally in the warped paper model even when I'm moving on the wapred or flat paper everything is still on the same piece of paper moving along it in the same manner, all that changes is the distance and thereby their interaction with me when I move on the paper in a different state.

So the warped paper model qualifies the one and the same approach I took to subspace.

What does this translate to in practice?

If I jump in a solar system all the stellar bodies will still be present and their gravity will act on me - a beneficial thing if I move towards the sun or any other body.
OK, but then I can only go in one direction without inputing massive ammounts of energy.
Not necessarly - it's all a matter of how I warp the paper/space. If make it so that a different stellar body appears closer to me with the difference in its matter calculated for I can force the planet (for instance Jupiter in Sol) to work against the sun, and if the space is warped toward the destination more it wil have a greater force pulling me there.

The nice thing about this model also explains why most of the time I don't have to use any prolusion in subspace (though I'm able to since it interacts with me just like normal space) - I simply let gravity take its toll, and it can accelerate me faster and cheaper than any concievable engine.

This also explains why I can't make long jumps anywher - if I made such a long jump in a changing gravitational environment, amplified by the warp the tidal forces could pretty much shred me to tiny bits and pieces.

What's the explanation behind jump nodes?

Compared to planets, stars are very-very far. To achieve a warp of sufficient magnitude toward the destination star to overpower my own I have to input a gargantuan ammount of energy.

In theory with sufficeint energy I could jump to any given star - the problem is that I might as well burn the very star I want to jump from to achieve the effect since the energy nivo can be so high (Capella anyone?).

Therefore I must look for weak spost - stars closest to my own.
Beside those, being at certain Lagrange points could also make my life easier since the planets in the system can add a little boost, and the isotrope gravitational fields of these orbits also makes the calculation and seemless transition easier.

However when I spoke of this warp in our paper space I never took into account a crucial fact beside the warping capacity of gravitation fields:

Who ever said that space itself is homogene, isotrop in all directions on all dimensions.

Our experiences with it so far seemed to appear so, however soon we learnt gravitation practically warps space time (the intial effect used to initiate a jump).

If space was so even, why do we have these irregularities - stars, galaxies?

When the BIG BOOM took place, small irregularities must have arisen. With those similar irregularities may be inherent to the geomerty of space itself.
Between some stars, this legacy of the BOOM may still live a warp in the fabric still existing. In some instances it may even move, or change with time creating unstable nodes, while otherwise the participants have stabilized it with their pull.

(The Knososs can't create a node, it merly stabilizes one).

Therefore beside factors of gravity and inherent warp can exist in space. Areas in a solar system where or in space where we can slip into this pre-created / inherited warps is what we could define as a node.
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Offline Kie99

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Quote
Originally posted by Flaser
*snip*The Psamtik's misjump - thanks to the Sath's presence - is good canon evidence.
*snip*


The Psamtik misjumped because of the knossos, not the Sath, the Sath's gravitational influence would be minimal, after all you don't see ships getting pulled towards it do you?
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Offline TrashMan

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Quote
Originally posted by kietotheworld
That is the most inane post I have ever seen.  The knossos creates a jump node, it doesn't magically syncronize your ship with subspace, or get your speed up to about 135 M/S


No, but don't you think the Iceni needed far less energy and effort to make the jump into the Knossos than it would need otherwise?
Besides, we have no idea how much energy one jump uses and from where hte Iceni jumped in. for all we know it might have been very clsoe by (or very far away, depending on the "what uses less power" theory)
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan


No, but don't you think the Iceni needed far less energy and effort to make the jump into the Knossos than it would need otherwise?


Why?

 

Offline Kie99

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Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan


No, but don't you think the Iceni needed far less energy and effort to make the jump into the Knossos than it would need otherwise?
Besides, we have no idea how much energy one jump uses and from where hte Iceni jumped in. for all we know it might have been very clsoe by (or very far away, depending on the "what uses less power" theory)


Quite simply no.

Capital ships need some time to recharge their jump drives, even to go through the knossos.  Remember the Sathanas in the nebula, why didn't it just jump straight to the Knossos and into Gamma Draconis?  Because it needed to recharge its drives.  Don't forget that Shivan subspace tech is significantly more advanced GTVA subspace tech.
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Offline StratComm

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I'm sorry kara, I don't think the more complicated explanation is worth it on this one.  Besides the fact that I hate the notion of somehow harnessing energy out of a gravity well to travel out of it by any means other than kinetic.  I don't see how GPE could be put to use for anything other than creating a stable subspace layer throughout a system.

Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan


No, but don't you think the Iceni needed far less energy and effort to make the jump into the Knossos than it would need otherwise?
Besides, we have no idea how much energy one jump uses and from where hte Iceni jumped in. for all we know it might have been very clsoe by (or very far away, depending on the "what uses less power" theory)


I'll second the "why" comment.  Since the Iceni is the only ship we ever see do anything like that, it's a lot simpler (and more supported) to assume that the ship was designed to run blockades.  It ran one prior to King's Gambit, obviously, as well as a couple more en route to Gamma Draconis.  It also repeatedly jumped whenever it pleased the rest of the times you see it; when you first discover it and in the following mission it leaves as soon as a) it's discovered or b) it reaches the node it's trying to jump out through.  Add to the fact that the Iceni was never adequately armed (it's not even port-starboard balanced, and it's a symmetrical ship) and it's pretty clear that it was never intended to do direct combat.

Also, I think jump energy is pretty much constant, actually, at least for intra-system jumps.  Nothing in canon suggests otherwise.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

  

Offline Carl

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Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14


I wouldn't be surprised if the Iceni was purpose-built to be a blockade runner, myself.  Given it's purpose, and it's small size (for a command ship for an entire rebellion), it'd make a fair bit of sense if it was designed to run rather than fight.


i don't know about that. it's got better stats than other corvettes, and has depleted uranium armor, which would make it heavier and slower. The Iceni seems better fit to stand and fight.
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Offline StratComm

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Quote
Originally posted by Carl


i don't know about that. it's got better stats than other corvettes, and has depleted uranium armor, which would make it heavier and slower. The Iceni seems better fit to stand and fight.


Heavy as opposed to collapsed-core molybdenum sheathing?  I don't think so.

And the Iceni is certainly faster than any other corvette (or cruiser, for that matter; not much can keep pace with it.  Ok, the Mentu can, but nothing else).  Don't know about turning offhand, but that's not really the point.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Heavy, yes, when one considers that collapsed-core molybdenum sheathing probably offers better protection for tonnage used, yet the Iceni is more resistant to damage then a Deimos, which means that its total tonnage of armor must be more then that of a Deimos to offer greater protection, and it is using a less damage-resistant armor.

The Iceni's armor plate probably weighs about 1.5 times what that of a Deimos corvette does.
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