Author Topic: Alternatives to oil?  (Read 2826 times)

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Er, pardon me, but isn't a 'refueling station' for hydrogen fuel cells essentially a water tap and a big electrode?  It always occurred to me that a refueling station should require little more then sizable jug of water and an electical outlet.

Though, fuel cells aren't a solution.  You still need electricty to produce the hydrogen to run the fuel cells.   Allows for better pollution control then autos burning gas, but still, somewhere down the line someone is using an actual energy source.

Solar is nice, but AFAIK nowhere near efficient enough to supply all power needs.  Useful for homes and maybe cars, and a good worthwhile investment, but not enough by itself.  I don't know how useful it would be in Britain - you guys don't exactly have a reputation as a bright sunshiny place.

Wave power is a pretty good investment, Imho.  Wind is nice some places, near useless in others.  Nuclear has that whole radioactive waste problem - shooting it into the sun sounds real nice until you start thinking about the number of launch vehicles that have gone BOOM while launching.  Those are unpleasant enough without spreading radioactive waste throughout the stratosphere, thank you very much.   Coal is a stopgap but will encounter the same problems as oil sooner or later, probably sooner.


There is no one solution.  Have to invest in as much as possible, really, and use what works where you are.

None of this addresses the big problem.  No oil = no latex = no condoms = no nookie for me.

 

Offline phreak

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we could always go back to using whale oil
« Last Edit: February 14, 2005, 09:42:37 pm by 31 »
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Offline Grey Wolf

Synthetics. Get used to them :)

Anyway, the current best option is to use nuclear fission, other than the whole waste disposal issue. Once they figure out how to harness bubble fusion, however, that should solve our problems.
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline Flaser

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I only adress the industrial production of electricity for now:

Fact 1.: Currently manufacturing a turbine for a wind generator eats more energy than it will ever produce in its lifetime.

Fact 2.: Ground erosion and sound pollution are serious issues with wind generators.

Fact 3.: Solar cells don't have a very long life expectancy. (~15-20 years max, then their output dramatically drops) They can't produce any power most of the time.

Fact 4.: Solar cells take highly toxic (Germanium, Arsenic) materials to produce. The fact you need a big reserve in energy production to balance its short powerproduction capacity coupled with its low liftime compared to a conventional power station renders it a highly toxic source of power.

Fact 5.: In the energy industry you can't store what you produce - it should be immediately used. Therefore when their is little use you have to immediately shut down a couple of power stations, and when the need arises immediatelly bring them online.
(The reason for the shutdown is that the use of power generates the magnetic counter force in generators - when its gone the generator can suddenly overspin and damage/destroy itself.)
Both solar and wind power and incapable of this instantenous service, moreover what should we do with the power they make when no one uses it?
(Please, don't talk of batteris - no battery can handle the power levels we speak of, and simply the chemical reactions don't happen fast enough - not to mention you can only reagain about 40% of the input later on).

Addendum: I don't pull this stuff out of my....(whatever you like). I've heard them on a conference of our countries energy experts, read about it elsewhere in the literature of the issue ect.

So far the following options exist that won't be worse environmetally than the ones we use are and are already viable:

oil, gas, coil - duh the stuff we use.

THE Great problem: oil is the base for a myriad of chemical processes. Burning them is the worst thing we could do with it - it's the source of all the plastic you see.

Gas is still availible for a couple of hundred years at least.

Coil is the most polluting, though the new powerstations with sulfur filters greatly reduce the earlier environmental effects. (No more acid rain).

The main problem with the fossil fuels is the CO2 emmissions.
There is an alternative though that is highly overlooked IMHO:

Bio-fuel: Grow stuff, and later on burn it. Wood, alcohol ect.
Pros - whatever carbon you're gonne burn was already reagined from the air by the plants you've grown.
Cons - this won't lower the CO2 level, wood doesn't yield as much energy as any other fossil fuel.

Another renewable powersource: geo-thermal energy.
Its problems: it can't be transferred. It's not really suited to generate electricity, heating a city is more likely. The great problem is what to do with the water we gained from the earth - it's very salty most of the time. It can't be released into the sweet water, and we usually can't pump it back underground since the water resvior rock crumble and clog when the water is removed.

The "NUCLUAR" way:
Pros:
No pollution.
Their is plenty of fuel (especially if you include the uranium in the seawater or more than what we can do with in the next couple of thousand years if you include the Thorium we have).
Cons
It requires a constant and vigilant control and monitoring.
Proliferation danger - It also enables the owner to start an atom program and produce nuclear weapons - terrorists present a problem that the current regulations don't yet know how to handle.
Great con: nuclear power stations can't really be brought offline in a hinch - they can't compansate for the changing need of the network. A shutdown is problematic and a restart takes several days.

Possible solutions to nuclear waste:
Low and Medium activity waste disposal is already solved, it is only the high activity waste that's problematic since it has to be processed for decades before it can be permanently dumped in the apropiate facitlity.
All around the globe deep depositories are under construction. If built, they will allow for a permanent disposal of used fuel for the next 1000 years.
Waste processing combined with transmutation (changing long half life isotopes into short ones) greatly reduces the risk of containment . *
The closed fuel cycle could greatly increase the ammount of power we can gain per kg of fissible fuel and it would also dramatically lower the ammount of waste that has to be dealt with.

*I studied this issue, PM me if you wanna learn more.
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline Krackers87

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an alternative to oil eh....       why not....




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Offline Styxx

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Here in Brazil sugarcane ethanol is widely used to power cars and small trucks (well, pick-up trucks), and I don't think it would be too terribly hard to get it to power larger vehicles - we'd need larger crop areas and a program to accelerate the application of new agricultural tech on the fields, but it should be possible. Especially considering the ridiculous amounts of unused land we have around here. And most of the electrical power is produced through hydroelectrical stations - they have their own problems, but if properly managed their usable lifes can be extended tremendously.
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Offline Tiara

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We need micro-nuclear plants under the hoods of our cars!

...you would be branded as a member of the Axis of Evil though :p
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Offline vyper

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Or Microwave based power stations supplied from orbit.... ahem...
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

  

Offline Flaser

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Quote
Originally posted by Styxx
Here in Brazil sugarcane ethanol is widely used to power cars and small trucks (well, pick-up trucks), and I don't think it would be too terribly hard to get it to power larger vehicles - we'd need larger crop areas and a program to accelerate the application of new agricultural tech on the fields, but it should be possible. Especially considering the ridiculous amounts of unused land we have around here. And most of the electrical power is produced through hydroelectrical stations - they have their own problems, but if properly managed their usable lifes can be extended tremendously.


Hydro stations are probably the best since eventually all powerstations use turbines and generators, but those are the only parts that need to be maintained/replaced in a hydro plant...

....however - and it is a strong however - I'm always pissed off when an austrien green peacer (with a strong case of STUPIDUS MAXIMUS ergo no whatsoevever technical / proper consideration to cloud his mind) goes off that we should shut down Paks our only nuclear powerplant and go to hydro power.

(Fact : Paks provides roughly 50% of the whole nations powersupply)

It doesn't appear to cause any discord in them that we have no whatsoever hills and falling rivers in Hungary to power the said stations!

....that's my only reason against hydro power - you need rivers with a big enough fall to be able to build one of them.

They also have to be properly designed not to have a huge ecological impact on the river they are built upon.

@Tiara - Once I got my degree I plan to work on implementing that.
(maybe not your car yet, but I want to build feasible micro fission reactors to substitute a lot of stuff used by the industry)
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline aldo_14

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IIRC there have been plans/ideas/designs for coastal hydropower (wave power), but I think there were also concerns about the effect upon the tides that large scale use of the generators would /could have.

Of course, given that Hungary is landlocked it makes no difference whatsoever, but it's an interesting idea for other countries; I wonder how feasible it would be to, for example, supply the electricity on the Shetlands with wave power (or maybe windpower).

 
The ultiamate thing to do would be to findsome where sunny that nobody lives (ie a desert), then fill it with solar panals.  With a decent international effort, every country could share in the power, regardless of how big/sunny it is.
Ofcourse, that would take international cooperation, and who's going to force countries to do that? :lol:

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Offline Styxx

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If you really want solar panels, put the damn things in orbit. No diffusion or scattering, no risk of overcast days, and they can be placed  in orbit in a way that they always face the sun directly.
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Quote
Originally posted by Styxx
If you really want solar panels, put the damn things in orbit. No diffusion or scattering, no risk of overcast days, and they can be placed  in orbit in a way that they always face the sun directly.


Yeah, but thats so expensive its stupid.  The benefits would be limited.

Somebody has been using to much microwave power in SC2000. :lol:

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Offline Flipside

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Actually, iirc the form of radiation that Solar Cells convert into energy these days isn't actually blocked that well by clouds, they don't just convert the visible spectrum anymore.

 

Offline Styxx

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Quote
Originally posted by beatspete
Yeah, but thats so expensive its stupid.  The benefits would be limited.

Somebody has been using to much microwave power in SC2000. :lol:


So is spending insane amounts on solar panels that'll only be used half the time. Right now using solar panels isn't feasible in any way for very large scale power generation. By the time it becomes possible, we may already have orbital elevators, which would make putting them in orbit much more worthwhile than sticking them on the ground.

Solar panels suck anyway. :p
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Offline Flipside

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Well, the main concern with putting huge Solar Panels in orbit is the fact we'd have to go up there and tidy up a bit first ;)

 

Offline Flaser

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*übersarcastic: Looks like everybody is brained

I already told you that solar panels life exectancy is roughly 2 decades most - and they need tons of toxic material to produce.

If you put them into the Sahara, in 20 years you'll end up with a toxic waster site far bigger with more toxic waste than any nuclear poweplant with similar output.

Don't ever dream of beaming down energy from space! Those death ray solutions are very dangerous (you can't gurantee all the what ifs  if you loose controll of it).

Right now, the notion of orbital elevators don't seem well enough known - you put a constant spike into the ionosphere its effects aren't well enough known.
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline Nuke

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there is an abundant alternative fuel out there, people, thats right, people. i say we make people combustion reactors. we incenerate people in vast quantities to boil water which creates steam to spin turbines which in turn generate electricity. im a genious!

*runs off to the patent office*

:D
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Offline Flaser

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*puts on flameproof suit

(Bimbo voice): I hope you know Nuke, you're gone answer all the hatemail about that post's nazi references.

*switches suit for anti-rad suit with added lead plates

Hufff...huff ('these things are damn heavy')...anyway I've sold my soul to the atomic spark, and will adamantly stand with my radiant godess.
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline Nuke

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im no nazi, i believe in equal opritunity hate
« Last Edit: February 16, 2005, 11:48:40 am by 766 »
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN