[Grug]

Ah, but I believe there was never God in the first place. The so called saints etc, were just ordinary people but with good morals.

Near anyone in my mind has the potential to become a great person.
But nobody's perfect.

Saying that God works through people, is in my mind stealing the glory from humanity itself.

edit- oh and I thought the flavour of the soup was determined by the ingredients?

[icespeed]

oh, well then, that makes things a whole lot more difficult. so i guess you're a big bang person, an evolutionist, a morality-derived-from-societal-survival-necessities guy, in short, an atheist? well, that's your choice.

[Grug]

Aye it is.
I have no problem with people believing in a God either, if it makes them think their a better person - that's their choice. But in my mind, its just the good already within themselves shining through.

Where religeon is applied for evil means however is where I fall strongly back on atheism. And will go so far to say that I would believe those people to be brain washed.
It's happened all throughout the ages, most notibly of recent, being in the form of suicide bombers etc.
Killing yourself and others for the name of a God / Prophet just disgusts me to the pit of my stomach.

[Ford Prefect]

I take a different approach in this respect. I entirely deny the actual existence of any abstracts at all. Good, evil, right, wrong, justice-- they're all imaginary, but they are also the inevitable result of the way our minds work. The question, in my mind, is of the degree to which we want to pretend that these things are absolute, for the sake of our happiness.

Now, god, I think, is a seperate emotion from the ones that govern morality. Ethics are about the people around us, while stark spirituality is profoundly personal. Spirituality is the same thing as our sense of beauty. A figment of our perceptions, perhaps, but it nevertheless has a very strong effect on us, and thus cannot be written off as simply a "lie" or a "fairy tale." I do not believe in god, an afterlife, a soul, or in any metaphysical world whatsoever, but the thoughts and feelings I experience when I listen to a Gregorian chant or to Handel's "Messiah" are real, and they say something about the nature of humanity.

[Grug]

Hmm I think I understand. So you live 'in the moment' and that's it?

I like some aspects of Religeon, such as the community it encourages, and I sometimes adapt some of the ways into my own life.

I've toyed with the idea of learning more about Budhism for a long time now, but it seems a little difficult to find information about.

[Ghostavo]

Originally posted by Setekh
Christianity would say:

No one gets into Heaven by virtue of being a good man, because the standard they are measured against is God's own perfection. Even those who we would say are 'good' by human standards are just that - measured only according to a (thoroughly depraved, if we are honest about ourselves) human standard.

So if anyone gets into Heaven, it is by God's grace. Thus, the Sikh would not get into Heaven, because he has not asked God for the grace that is needed for him to enter Heaven.

Totally fair from the 'wise and powerful' God - because in the end, no one deserves to get into Heaven by their own merit.

So basicly, all humans are guilty of the crime of being human, so unless they beg before some all powerful entity, their last place of residence changes from something akin to a nice flat to something which looks like a burnt match?

[icespeed]

Originally posted by Ghostavo


So basicly, all humans are guilty of the crime of being human, so unless they beg before some all powerful entity, their last place of residence changes from something akin to a nice flat to something which looks like a burnt match?

i wish people would read _all_ the posts instead of quoting the one that sounds the most controversial and ignoring the others. both steak and i have made it clear that humans are guilty of _rejecting_ the God who created us, which is a rather different and far more serious crime than being guilty of humanity.

the other thing i thought we made fairly clear, but apparently not, is that the Christian concept of hell is an absence of God rather than the usual fire and brimstone. the images of fire and burning used in the bible are intended as imagery. they may or may not be reality, but their primary interpretation is metaphorical in any case.

[Grug]

That sounds a bit bleak.

So your saying that as soon as we are born, we have rejected God and have to make peace with the almighty?

I think I've missed something here, because I fail to understand how an intellectual person could believe in that...

[aldo_14]

I don't believe a word of organized religion, because it's men* who write the holy books.  Plus I wouldn't want to worship a God who valued worship of himself (what is he, insecure?) above treating other people well.

If Mother Theresa was an aetheist, would it mean she wouldn't get into heaven?

(Incidentally, on the whole religion causes trouble thing; human differences cause trouble.  People will and do subvert any 'cause' to suit their own biases, religion is just a particularly suitable thing for that because it demands belief rather than rational consideration+)

*specifically males, due to the time period they were written.  Which were somewhat sexist AFAIK when it come to that sort of thing.

+ don't take that as criticism BTW.  I'm aetheist (in the sense I reject organized religion, I'm agnostic on the existence of God and believe all I need to be is a decent person and i'll be ok regardless), but at the same point I understand the whole point of religion is belief rather than proof - to 'prove' Christianity, or Islam, or Sikhism, etc would surely destroy the whole point of it?

[Deathstorm V2]

This whole god-heaven argument is the reason I'm an athiest virtue-ethicist.

The only problem I have now is working out what 'the good life' is...

[Clave]

This looks good to me: http://www.witchway.net/

[Ghostavo]

Originally posted by icespeed


i wish people would read _all_ the posts instead of quoting the one that sounds the most controversial and ignoring the others. both steak and i have made it clear that humans are guilty of _rejecting_ the God who created us, which is a rather different and far more serious crime than being guilty of humanity.

the other thing i thought we made fairly clear, but apparently not, is that the Christian concept of hell is an absence of God rather than the usual fire and brimstone. the images of fire and burning used in the bible are intended as imagery. they may or may not be reality, but their primary interpretation is metaphorical in any case.

I've read all the posts, but that still isn't explained (properly at least). Also, I remember reading something about Christ's death leading him to hell. If hell is the absence of God, how can Christ have gone there when he was crucified?

Coming back to the post in question, the problem with that is how can you reject something at birth (or before birth even), if you don't know what the hell everyone is talking about? Furthermore, it's like going to a baby and telling that if he/she doesn't do X she won't get the candy.

It's bullying.

[BlackDove]

Uhm Ghostavo. You really expect logic from.....any religion?

[Ghostavo]

Seriously speaking, I would... sad isn't it?

EDIT:
In response to the post below by BD.
DAMN TIME WARPS!!

[Singh]

Well, being a Sikh, I would automatically say A.

But being...well, being Singh, I'd say more of option D - we'll never know........

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Grug

I have more faith in humanity and good will than imaginary beings.

That sums it up for my part.
I am an atheist, I don't have any reason of whatsoever to believe into some obscure entity such as god. Though I must agree that church is a powerful institution, perhaps I could subvert it to serve my goals...

[vyper]

Option 2 Flip - I even wrote an essay on the concept for my RE project back in high school.

[Nico]

Sooooo, I have one question, too:
Before JC, christianism didn't exist, so to speak. And it took hundreds, thousands of years to spread worldwide.
So, what about those before JC, what about those, dunno, native americans who were not "blessed" by some sign before the colons poped up and evangelized by gallons?
What about 2 year old kids that die for X reason and can't even grasp the concept of god?
All damned, just coz they didn't ( couldn't ) know?
I believe hell ( to reply to someone who asked before, hell exists in all religions, before christianism, be shintoist, norse, pagan, egyptian, whatever ) must be an awfully crowded place if the christians are right

As for me, I think we turn into some etheral creature that wanders  around the world and jumps into the next baby just born that it meets. Yeah, that's why they cry, coz an etheral creature forces its way inside the soulless body!
Nah, really

[KappaWing]

I've toyed with the idea of learning more about Budhism for a long time now, but it seems a little difficult to find information about.

http://www.buddhanet.net/
All there is to know about Buddhism.

I think I've missed something here, because I fail to understand how an intellectual person could believe in that...

How I understand it, intellectuality and religion are completley unrelated. You "Know" knowledge, but you "believe" religion.
Considering how most religions don't usually base their beliefs on logic or reason, it seems that when discussing religion, intellectuality, reason and logic don't play a piviotal role.

[pyro-manic]

I don't know. That's the short answer.

I reject the idea of a "human" god, anyway. If there is a god, then there's no way it'd be interested in the likes of us. That's just humans inflating their ego. I'm agnostic, and I know I'm right.

I'm pretty much a buddhist, though Buddhism isn't a religion as such , more of a lifestyle . I'm not sure about the reincarnation aspect, but I believe we are all one and the same, and that in death we return to the cosmos, and are one with the universe again. Basically, be good to yourself and others, and everything will turn out fine.