Author Topic: A Question about religion - no flames please.  (Read 6422 times)

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Offline Unknown Target

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A Question about religion - no flames please.
I actually brought that exact example to a die-hard Christian. She said that he would go to Hell, no matter what, because he didn't believe in the Christian God.

Anyway, I'm a witch (it's masculine as well, people), and belong to the Wiccan faith, which believes that you are judged by your actions, and as long as you are a good person, you will go to Heaven. (Not that we believe in Hell anyway - if you do bad, you come back again until your karma works out. It borrows from the Eastern traditions in that respect).


Just thought I should point out that not all religions say that if you don't believe in their God(s) you'll go to hell :)

 

Offline Flipside

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A Question about religion - no flames please.
I'm glad some other people put their points forward for other religions, for a while I thought I'd led poor Setekh into the centre of a stoning circle, and that wasn't my intention.

I like the idea of the 'Wheel', similar to the Wicca belief, that we are on a constant search for our own form of 'Godhood' and we keep turning the wheel till we achieve it :)

 

Offline Goober5000

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A Question about religion - no flames please.
I would offer a slightly modified version of Setekh's view.  From a Christian POV, everyone is headed for hell from birth and it is only through the grace of God that they get into heaven.  I think that's pretty much common belief among Christians.

However it says repeatedly in the Bible that God judges us based on what we do with what we have (the Parable of the Talents, for example).  So in a sense the Sikh is accepting God's grace, because he's responding in the only way he knows how - by living an honorable and virtuous life.  Since God is the source of goodness, he's seeking after that goodness.  He is "a law for himself" (Romans 2:14-15).  He's certainly loving his neighbor as himself.  So God would welcome into heaven (option 1, but for a different reason) because he responded wholeheartedly to what he was given.

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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A Question about religion - no flames please.
Quote
How I understand it, intellectuality and religion are completley unrelated. You "Know" knowledge, but you "believe" religion.
Considering how most religions don't usually base their beliefs on logic or reason, it seems that when discussing religion, intellectuality, reason and logic don't play a piviotal role.

Well, this is debatable, I think. I equate religion with art, ("art" meaning all forms-- literature, music, visual, etc.), and the most insightful art certainly stems from those with exceptional intellectual prowess. The problem with religion is that it is often built by people with great artistic insight, but it is then interpreted by the average person, who is not capable of understanding the overwhelming complexities of which the intellectual is aware.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline Flipside

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A Question about religion - no flames please.
Also, theres the natural human 'agenda' to deal with. Everyone tries to twist the world so that they have the advantage, it's normal and has been going on for centuries.

The problem is, when you start doing that with religion, you are doing it on a global scale. So one person will deliberately misinterpret  something simply for personal gain, and that comment/interpretation could lead to the death of hundreds of thousands of people. That is the danger of adding the human equation to religion.

 

Offline ShadowWolf_IH

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A Question about religion - no flames please.
and actually from a christian POV, let me just say this...and i don't know the address so don't ask me for it.....

"it is better to have not known me than to have known me and turned your back"

notice that is says "to have known me"  not "to have known who i am".  we all know who the christian God is, but, i daresay that until your heart has been filled you don't know the christian God.  Once you know God in that manner, and turn your back, you blew it according to christianity.  For those who have never known or heard the Gospel of Jesus, I have been taught that God allows for them.  Same with small children who are not of an age of understanding.  Same for adults who can never truly comprehend.

I know it's vague, but i don't pretend to fully understand my God, or his ways.
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Offline Nico

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A Question about religion - no flames please.
So, nobody can answer my question?
:p
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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A Question about religion - no flames please.
No. And the fact that no one can speaks volumes.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline ShadowWolf_IH

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Quote
Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH


 For those who have never known or heard the Gospel of Jesus, I have been taught that God allows for them.  Same with small children who are not of an age of understanding.  Same for adults who can never truly comprehend.

 


that would mean that God makes exceptions for those who haven't heard, or who were not of an age of understanding, or were not of intellect enough to understand

how's that Nico?

and we posted at the same time Ford
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Offline Nico

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A Question about religion - no flames please.
He  makes exceptions?
Why can't I be satisfied with that, when he will make no exception for any other people, no matter how good they are? :doubt:
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Solatar

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A Question about religion - no flames please.
Quote
Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
and actually from a christian POV, let me just say this...and i don't know the address so don't ask me for it.....

"it is better to have not known me than to have known me and turned your back"

notice that is says "to have known me"  not "to have known who i am".  we all know who the christian God is, but, i daresay that until your heart has been filled you don't know the christian God.  Once you know God in that manner, and turn your back, you blew it according to christianity.  For those who have never known or heard the Gospel of Jesus, I have been taught that God allows for them.  Same with small children who are not of an age of understanding.  Same for adults who can never truly comprehend.

I know it's vague, but i don't pretend to fully understand my God, or his ways.


Speaking from a Roman Catholic viewpoint, I can say that the Catholic church has no "unforgivable" sins. No matter what you do, the "road back to the church" is always open.

All this stuff about "having to know Jesus, and we're all sinners from the start" stuff that is attributed to Christianity just...well, isn't really thrown at me as a Catholic (I go to a Catholic Highschool and have to take a course every year on Theology). In fact I get into arguements with my Protestant Christian (not sure how else to say it...Catholics are Christians too, so I can't just say Christians) friends every once in a while on subjects of that kind (well...most recent was a discussion on whether listening to death metal was a sin. I uphold that it isn't, :p ).

I also know quite a few missionaries that travel to poorer countries and help out there. I find it extremely offensive that certain people, having not met these individuals, can lump them all together and say they brainwash people...the ones I know work their tails off in Haiti giving out medicine and food, as well as preaching a bit of course.

I call myself a Roman Catholic, but I believe that any religion can be "right". Worshipping the Christian God should be no different than worshipping even a set of polytheistic gods. The "one true God" just presents himself in a way that the culture can understand Him/It/She/Herm. The parts of human history where men have destroyed each other "for their God", are completely to blame on humanity's stupidity. I am undecided as to whether newborns, etc, are sent to heaven or possibly their souls are transferred to another being for "another chance".

 

Offline ShadowWolf_IH

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A Question about religion - no flames please.
i was also taught that people who have never known him can go to heaven.  Would you deny a person the right to live simply because they live in a tribe in south america that has as yet been undiscovered?  Neither would I.  come to think of it, neither would God, so how would you decide that one?  If you know his heart, then it is easy to decide.  

I am a firm believer that for people who have never been a christian, they are judged on their works, or more to the point, the heart.  I also believe that with all of these religeons out there, we all worship the same being.  Religeon is simply a man-made tradition on how to worship a diety.  The religeon i don't think is as important to God as our hearts are.  Know what i mean?
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Offline Solatar

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A Question about religion - no flames please.
I think me and ShadowWolf posted at the same time, and both of our last paragraphs mean basically the same thing if I understand him right.

 

Offline Mongoose

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A Question about religion - no flames please.
As Solatar posted above, there is no one "Christian" viewpoint on most religious issues.  There are many sects of Christianity; for example, fundamentalist Christians would disagree with many of the doctrines that form the cornerstone of my Catholic life.  What unites all Christians is the belief in Christ as the Son of God and Savior.

As for the question at hand, I'm much more in agreement with Solatar/ShadowWolf than Setekh.  For example, as a Catholic, I do not believe that salvation is a matter of faith alone.  What we do is as important as what we believe.  In fact, someone who professes to be a Christian and lives their life in a manner contrary to the teachings of Christ really isn't much of a Christian, is he?  If we claim to believe in Christ, we are obligated to follow Christ's teachings.  As I mentioned, this is not a universal belief among Christians; indeed, Luther's belief in "sola scriptura," the principle that faith in God was the sole requirement for salvation, helped lead to the Reformation.

As for what I believe, and for what my faith teaches, I think it answers your original question Nico, at least in part.  I believe that my own faith is the fullest revelation of God's truth to humanity.  (Note that I don't expect a single one of you to agree, and I'm not offended if you don't.  That's just my belief.)  At the same time, however, the Church teaches that every faith has at least some aspect of truth in it.  In other words, although people are of various religious beliefs, they are really worshipping the same omnipotent being of God.  This may have been the position of the Church in the past, but it has not been for a long time.  I personally believe that any person, no matter what their particular religious faith, can achieve Heaven.  As some of you have said, dooming someone who has never heard of Christ to Hell for that sole reason isn't exactly the sign of a benevolent and forgiving God, is it?  I believe that anyone, be they Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, or anything else, can achieve salvation.  In my mind, at least, if someone lives a good and virtuous life according to their particular faith, then they will go to Heaven.

If any of you have ever read C.S. Lewis's The Chronicles of Narnia, a particularly wonderful children's story that is also a Christian allegory, this can be easier to understand.  In this story, the character meant to represent Christ, the lion Aslan, talks to someone who worships a different entity, a god of warfare and terror known as Tash.  This person has loyally worshipped Tash for his entire life and has lived virtuously.  After the end of Narnia, in Paradise, the man asks Aslan, "For my whole life I have feared you and worshipped Tash.  How, then, can I be here?"  Aslan answers, "Any good deed you performed in the name of Tash was rendered unto me.  Likewise, any evil deeds performed in my name were rendered unto Tash."  (This is a truly excellent series of seven books; even though I first read them in second grade, they remain perhaps my second-favorite series of all time.  The ending is particularly beautiful.  I'd highly recommend them.)  The point of this allegory is that, as far as I'm concerned, anyone who does right by their own faith is doing right in the eyes of God.  This same concept even holds true for atheists.  Yes, that's right, I believe that someone who does not believe in any concept of a higher power can get into Heaven, so long as they live a good life to the best of their ability.  This belief might shock a few of you. :p  This is not the same as the concept in Dante's Inferno; I'm speaking of the full actuality of Heaven, not a particularly nice level of Hell or anything.

The issue of unbaptized babies is one that has changed over the history of the Church.  Even as recently as into the twentienth century, the Church spoke of the concept of "limbo," a state of being where babies who died in the womb or unbaptized would reside.  However, this teaching has been somewhat downplayed over the past few decades.  Personally, I believe that an all-loving God would bring all children, including the unborn and baptized, into His care.

As for those who died before Christ's crucifixion and resurrection, I'm not entirely positive of the specific Church teaching on this point.  I personally believe, however, that, whether before or after Christ's death, the good who died before Christ was born did make it to Heaven.  I'm sorry that I can't go into more detail; I will try to look it up, though.  I'm also not entirely sure of Jewish beliefs regarding heaven and hell; I do know that certain people in the Old Testament are referred to as being in heaven, and Christ's parable of the beggar Lazarus details him being taken to Heaven.  At the same time, though, Christ's death and resurrection destroyed death and enabled all of humanity to attain everlasting life through redemption.  I'll have to get back to you on this specific point.

As for my own specific images of heaven and hell, I see heaven as a place of indescribable beauty and light, a state of perfect union with God.  I see those in heaven as being like God, all-knowing and completely good.  As for hell,  I see it as a place of utter darkness, torment, and sorrow, a state of complete separation from God.  I also believe in Purgatory, a state of purging one's earthly sins before one enters into Heaven.

I hope this post has done some good, and I hope even more that it doesn't start the oh-too-easy path to a flamewar. :p
« Last Edit: February 17, 2005, 12:04:36 am by 1965 »

 
A Question about religion - no flames please.
I'm going to start off by saying I love this forum. A religion thread, over 60 posts long, and no flames. That's better then most dinner-table debates I've had over this kind of stuff.

I'll explain my own POV first: I'm quite against most organised religion, but I respect anyone who wishes to worship. I'm not a very firm believer in a great creator, but also not a very firm disbeliever. If, however, there was a great creator, I do believe he started off with the big bang, and not with Adam and Eve.

I personally refuse to believe in a God who finds it nessecary to believe in Him just to be allowed into the 'good' part of the afterlife. I try to live in a 'good' way, as in helping anyone who asks for aid, respecting anyone who wishes to worship, and preventing hurt (to anyone) if it is avoidable.  If some God almighty however desides that that simply isn't enough, because I didn't pray to him often enough, I'll flip  him (or her, now that I think of it) the bird the moment he informs me of that.

I'd rather be in Hell and suffer, but with a clean conscience, then live in some kind of Heaven, while knowing I'd be lying my ass of just to get in.

One thing about being in heaven, like God, all knowing and all good. If I was all knowing about the things on earth, but powerless to help, that would be a torment in its own right. I have a friend I can only reasonably speak with over MSN due to distance, and it is quite a problem if you cannot be near someone when you know that person is hurting.
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Offline aldo_14

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A Question about religion - no flames please.
Quote
Originally posted by Mongoose


As for what I believe, and for what my faith teaches, I think it answers your original question Nico, at least in part.  I believe that my own faith is the fullest revelation of God's truth to humanity.  (Note that I don't expect a single one of you to agree, and I'm not offended if you don't.  That's just my belief.)  At the same time, however, the Church teaches that every faith has at least some aspect of truth in it.  In other words, although people are of various religious beliefs, they are really worshipping the same omnipotent being of God.  This may have been the position of the Church in the past, but it has not been for a long time.  I personally believe that any person, no matter what their particular religious faith, can achieve Heaven.  As some of you have said, dooming someone who has never heard of Christ to Hell for that sole reason isn't exactly the sign of a benevolent and forgiving God, is it?  I believe that anyone, be they Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, or anything else, can achieve salvation.  In my mind, at least, if someone lives a good and virtuous life according to their particular faith, then they will go to Heaven.


What if they live a good and virtuous life according to their own personal moral code rather than that of a specific faith?

 
A Question about religion - no flames please.
My view on that Aldo, is that if you adhere to your own personal moral, you are living according to a particular faith, namely, the faith in the goodness of man*.

*As in humanity, not male.
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Offline icespeed

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A Question about religion - no flames please.
Pheeeeew i'm gone for a day and this happens.

1. Christ in hell: in the first letter of Peter it says that "Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built..." (chapter 3, verse 18 to 20). This appears to say that Jesus went to a place in which people who died before he did were being held, in order to tell them the good news about himself. it does not say that he went to hell. i assume this is the passage being talked about.

2. People rejecting God at birth: by thinking that we know how to run things our own way, we are rejecting God as our creator and ruler who knows what's best for us (since he's omniscient). haven't you ever thought, what's that idiot doing, i could do it so much better! basically, saying that to God is rejecting him... and we all do it, even from babyhood. we've all said, or thought, that we know better than our parents. Christians believe God is the ultimate parent.

3. To answer Nico's question- people who lived before JC: refer to point 1, partially, and also, a place in the book of Hebrews, "...These (prophets and believers of God in the old testament) were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect." (chapter 11 verse 39-40) So apparently those who place their trust in God will go to heaven, although they may not be there yet.

4. About people who don't confess the name of Jesus Christ specifically: there's a passage in the letter of Paul to the Romans which reads: "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and the thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)" Chapter 2, verse 12-15. Presumably, people will be judged by what they do, and should they do good, then they won't be punished, whether or not the know the actual name of God. of course the premise here is that no one can be perfectly good.
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Offline Ghostavo

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A Question about religion - no flames please.
Now I'm confused, I remember reading this specifically (it's a bit old, I'm afraid)

Quote
Originally posted in here
This is a crucial misunderstanding. First, let's define a few things.

Death - this can be on many levels. I identify three main ones:
1. Death of a part of ourselves, mentally or emotionally. People don't usually use the word death to refer to this, but it is quite sensible to sometimes say that a part of us has died (eg. my sister's love for dogs, after she was bitten really badly by one).
2. Physical death. This is the most common definition of death. The physical body, which we can prod with sticks, stops functioning.
3. Spiritual death. This is a little wierder. You cannot prod the spirit with sticks. Also, it seems that most people define spiritual death as an actual continuation of the spirit in a state of pain (a la hell), as opposed to spiritual annihiliation, whereby the spirit ceases to exist.

Hell - (as per Christian definition, of course) the complete absence of God and all his benefits, and the 'place' you are when you experience spiritual death (#3 above).

Now, when you talk about Jesus dying, you seem to be referring to physical death (#2), and it would have been far more convincing had he actually been sentenced to Hell (#3). Well, I put it to you plainly that this is exactly what Jesus did - you're right, it would have made absolutely no sense had he merely physically died and went 'back' to been with his Father in heaven. However, when he died on the cross, what he was doing was taking on all the sins of the world and paying for them - receiving the punishment they required (death, both #2 and #3). He didn't return to his Father's presence, he was separated from it - that's what made it a horror. Jesus, the Son of God, was actually treated as if he himself were a sinner.


So if christ is god, how could he have truly died? If I were god, and I knew that by "dying" I would not "truly die" (which is where the omniciesnce (sp?) kicks in) how can that be a true sacrifice?

Someone please explain this to me.
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A Question about religion - no flames please.
Quote
Originally posted by Ghostavo

So if christ is god, how could he have truly died? If I were god, and I knew that by "dying" I would not "truly die" (which is where the omniciesnce (sp?) kicks in) how can that be a true sacrifice?

Someone please explain this to me.


I will try...

Christ was not only fully God, but also fully human.  He felt and experienced everything any human would.  And yes, he did truly "die" both in the physical and spiritual sense.  He suffered the pain as any human...and died physically as any human would have under those circumstances....and was separated from God....as any sinner would be.  We see art depicting Christ on the cross....a small dribble of blood on his brow and a small cut on his side.  We've made his death a nice little clean thing that our consciences can live with.  What we've failed to think about is that he died a horrible death...with much suffering.  I never stopped to think about it until I heard a medical doctor describe what would be happening to the human body during scourging and crucifixtion.  

And yes, he rose again.... and we say "ya, but he was God"  Well, the whole point of it is:  This is no longer something attainable just by God.  He paid the price...and led by example...and now any human being can expect that same promise of living beyond physical death.

Btw...Let me say how nice it was to read posts on this sort of topic without someone resorting to name calling, slurs, and blatent disrespect to each other.  :yes: