[Unknown Target]

Originally posted by vyper
I admire your idealism and optomism, but I pity your sense of reality sir. I do not intend this as an insult, as we all spend a long time trying to find the truth of what our own nation is.  However, you must remember that there has never been such a thing as a black  and white situation. Perhaps you should look at the history of your nation in detail before you laud it's founders' "vision" with such vigour.

Certainly, my loyalty to the British Crown exists only so long as a "better" and more globally peaceful system of Government is in absentia.

I do know my country's history, and I don't like a lot of it. I know all about the mistreatments that America inflicted, especially during the age of imperialism, and even during WWII, with their mistreatment of Amer-Asians.
However, I do not use the pretense that since my country did bad things in the past, that it means those actions have to continue in the future. If we are to succeed, we must change the cycle, and I believe it is possible, and I will work to accomplish that mission.


And about the facts: they've been stated millions of times already. Anyone who reads this email probably already knows them. I admit that maybe it could use more facts, however, I still think that any person who would actually bother reading the thing, probably already knows them.
And religion is a crucial factor and cannot be left out, imo.

[Sapphire]

Hey UT.  Although I don't agree with several things you have said, I do acknowledge your good intentions.   I am also amazed at the nonconfrontational repsonses... Watch out or I'll actually start liking you guys.  LOL:lol:

[vyper]

[Q]. I know all about the mistreatments that America inflicted, especially during the age of imperialism, and even during WWII, with their mistreatment of Amer-Asians.[/Q]

Thats exactly the point - that wasn't what I was referring to.

[Unknown Target]

Then name others, and I'll see if I know of them or not

Besides, it doesn't change the fact that a nation, especially one with the democratic abilities of the United States, can move past such things and prepare for a better future.

[Flipside]

Originally posted by vyper


I'd just like to say I don't believe we made a mistake at all. We're still here, we've built an empire and got the t-shirt, and come out of it all with the Commonwealth.

Oh, I agree, in the end we started to realise that we were making violent enemies everywhere in the world and that we would have to take steps to make amends or pay some other way, but I just hate to think that, after the example of how many millions died in India and other countries before we got the message, that this situation is heading for a repeat performance.

[Liberator]

Originally posted by Tiara

I'm sorry, but I take offense in the fact that you think that Americans are better then the rest.

Well, it's like this.  There are americans(IE geograpically from the USA) and then there are Americans(those who stand for freedom and justice(not the gundams) and right of all Men(generic humanity) to live free from oppression of any kind)  And you'll forgive me axe lady, but the USA is the only country that has ever done that.  If we were an Imperial power like so much of the Eurotrash Elitist scum(nobody here...much) then why isn't Japan part of the US or Germany?  When the dust settles, Iraq will be free to choose their path, indeed they have already started.

Something interesting to note...almost all of the "insurgent"(they are actually almost all foreign non-iraqis) attacks have been against Iraqi police and civilians.  The ratio of innocent Iraqis killed to American casualties is overwhelmingly toward the Iraqis.  What does this say to us about the true intentions of the "insurgents"?

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Liberator
And you'll forgive me axe lady, but the USA is the only country that has ever done that.

[/b]
No, I won't forgive you because your self-glorification is simply bull**** to the biggest extend physically possible.

Eurotrash Elitist scum

[/b]
Ow ow ow...

Something interesting to note...almost all of the "insurgent"(they are actually almost all foreign non-iraqis) attacks have been against Iraqi police and civilians.  The ratio of innocent Iraqis killed to American casualties is overwhelmingly toward the Iraqis.  What does this say to us about the true intentions of the "insurgents"? [/B]

Ehm... So, suddenly you've become an intelligence officer operating from the pentagon with 100% accurate information and not just disinformation that is distributed by the press, lunatics and other assorted weirdos?

Sorry, but this is exactly the thing I was talking about to UT. It's 'Me, me, me and not you!' kinda thing. You make it sound like America is the embodyment of the Second Coming that will deliver everyone to freedom and prosperity. Well, here's a shocker for ya; it isn't.

[Liberator]

only because you won't get out of the way....

[vyper]

Lib, you're turning a perfectly civil and intelligent debate into horse****. Please stop it.

The United States is more morally superior to any other nation than the UK, France, the Netherlands, or Germany is.  The difference between us is that you are still at the stage where the majority of your population believes that you can do no wrong.  American involvement in overseas affairs has time and again proven you are the last people on earth anyone's freedom and liberty should be entrusted to.

Also, you'll find that steam-rollering over everyone else who you are daft enough to think are "in the way" or morally inferior, leads to quite a few folk not liking you - folk who can come back to cause you problems when your steam-roller runs out of steam.

Now, I suggest if this is to go any further you create a new thread before you destroy UTs.




UT - my references are to the 40s and previous to them, you may want to consider the concept of Wilsonian policy.  Additionally, try to remember that the wars of Independence were not fought for any great moral idealism but rather for a multitude of political schizms between Westminster and the colonies.

[Liberator]

fine, **** it, this was mostly spam to show off my new siggy component anyway...

[Deepblue]

Cliche.

But funny IF you haven't seen it before and know binary.

[Unknown Target]

Originally posted by vyper



UT - my references are to the 40s and previous to them, you may want to consider the concept of Wilsonian policy.  Additionally, try to remember that the wars of Independence were not fought for any great moral idealism but rather for a multitude of political schizms between Westminster and the colonies.

True that, and indeed, the Civil War also wasn't fought to end slavery, either, it just happened to come about because Lincoln needed the troops.
Still, though, the United States has a reputation of being founded on morals, yet the problem is that since the public usually just stops there, they don't think beyond that and go "Wait...so what about all these infractions?" If you get the public to actually look back on history, (something that the No Child Left Behind act does not require) and compare it to today, you'll see that we have lost many morals and obligations to the world as a self-proclaimed "world police".


Now, my optomism starts there, where I believe that it is still possible to save the country, even without most of the "peons" if you will, if only a few people would stop trying to cover their asses and actually get up there and lay something down on the line. If people would just wake up and fight for their rights, then they could not only improve America, but the world as a whole.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

ok to be honest with you, while i found of lib's remarks to be distateful, i did find something that he said to be true to the mark.  Japan, Germany, Italy, everyone who's ass we have kicked in the last century and now in this one.....how many are really under the control of the united states?  None.  Japan and germany are beating us in a different kind of war...a war of economics, make no mistake about it, we are losing that one, and badly.

If america was truly interested in imperialism, why are these countries onot controlled by our government?  Why is it that 12 years after we were there the first time, we were back?  We had Iraq beaten, let's face that fact right now, we had them beaten and the world was with us, had we rolled in then and finished the job, they could have set up a new and democratic government then.  Would iraq have been a puppet state?  No more so than japan and germany.  

I don't look at it as imperialism, as we are not adding anyone to any empire.   We have had 50 states since the 1950's, and we have had ample oportunity to annex other countries.  It hasn't happened, and it isn't happening.  

Here's a question that i beg an answer to.  Since most of the people on this forum are against america and her actions, what do you same people think that america doing right?

[Unknown Target]

The reason that we didn't go in the first time and finished the job is the same reason we shouldn't have this time: we have no way to get out.

And the US was an imperialist country. If you look back at history, you'll see how we were part of the unequel trade agreements that forced many Asian countries to trade with us, at a disadvantage to themselves. Sometimes imperialism doesn't mean conquering land, it means conquering economics, so there's no rival to your own.


Also, if we annexxed another country, the world would go ballistic. Almost every country would rally against us, because as soon as the giant flexes it's muscle, it either means it's going to punch something, or is warning everyone else.


EDIT: And about that. I'm not against America at all. In fact, I am a true patriot, a man who believes in his country and the greatness of it. However, following any leader, no matter how brilliant, without question, is simply asking for that leader to screw you over. You need to be able to disagree with your leader as well as agree, or you will never get fair representation.



I'm sorry if all that is hard to understand, my thoughts are bouncing around in my head right now.

[Gank]

If you're really interested in saving your country UT, sort this out. Forget about the ideals, principles and good intentions, because unless this is curbed the US will not be in a position to lead anyone to anything.

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/454b9d94-7...000e2511c8.html
http://www.businessweek.com/magazin...22077_mz054.htm
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?...yLhzkE&refer=uk
http://www.globalagendamagazine.com...thewsimmons.asp
Read these links and ask yourself, in a world where oil is in short supply, whos it going to be sold too, the man who has a few quid in his pocket or the man who owes money to everyone and anyone.

[Unknown Target]

Once again: a problem with ideals and principles. No one thinks of the future in America, hence the above problems.

EDIT: Also, none of those links work :-p I based that on the "debt clock" text in the first link

[Liberator]

Originally posted by Unknown Target
The reason that we didn't go in the first time and finished the job is the same reason we shouldn't have this time: we have no way to get out.

That is patently false.  It's just going to take time.  In the End freedom cannot be given by another, it can only be won by and for yourself. We were in Japan for 12 years before we left.  The fact that we had essentially bombed them back to the stone age was a factor that actually made it easier to rebuild them.  The problem in Iraq is not that the Iraqi are against us, no, they are coming out in droves to join the Police and Military.  Partly because it's a steady paycheck, but mostly because they want to see their country free of foreign influence.  The average Iraqi knows that the fastest way to be rid of the Americans is to get rid of the "insurgents"(they are actually Terrorists whose only goal is anarchy from which they can gain power) and establish a stable government by Law.  After these events, they would only receive the aid they request with all other American presence departing.  Unfortunately, we in the West(this includes most of Europe) have become very impatient by and large, we want what want now with no excuses, and there are precious few of us left who can think in the long term(perhaps my greatest flaw is that I cannot think effectively in the short term).  I suspect that we(the USA) will be in Iraq for at least another 6 years, probably more.  It would have been significantly easier if we had bombed them back to the stone age.

[WMCoolmon]

Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
ok to be honest with you, while i found of lib's remarks to be distateful, i did find something that he said to be true to the mark.  Japan, Germany, Italy, everyone who's ass we have kicked in the last century and now in this one.....how many are really under the control of the united states?  None.  Japan and germany are beating us in a different kind of war...a war of economics, make no mistake about it, we are losing that one, and badly.

In WW2, the only country the US could have had any real claim to control would be Japan. But to 'control' Japan would have been very expensive, manpower-wise, and the US already had a stranglehold on Japan's supplies (IIRC).

Annexing a country not connected with the annexer has a great many disadvantages, since you have to afford the same rights to citizens. Also, other countries will point fingers and complain.

Of course, you can always make them colonies, but then you still have the peer pressure from other countries to not do it.

There is much money to be had in rebuilding a country, however...

Although ideals and morals may be great for gaining support, being practical seems to be a far more widely practiced method in running a country. If that practicality works with morals and ideals, so much the better.

The debt situation is a pretty bad problem though (as is the dropping value of the dollar), but I'm not sure it's the fault of the average consumer. Government (military) spending is definitely a large chunk of it. I suppose everyone could 'Buy American', that might help a little, but I think a better idea would be to try to cut down on government spending. (Privatizing social security - not so great an idea when you're $3 Trillion in debt).

Anyways, I don't think there's any real cure for apathy. If people don't want to vote, they aren't going to vote. And, personally, I'm fine with that. If people aren't willing to keep up with who's President, I doubt they have enough info to make an informed decision on many issues. Plus, it means that any of my votes will just count that much more. If they don't like that, they're just going to have to start caring.

[01010]

Originally posted by Liberator
only because you won't get out of the way....

Twat.

[Flipside]

'to be an American is to stand tall above your peers, to be part of the greatest nation ever conceived!'

Actually, I don't take offence at that in the slightest, after all, isn't that what more or less everyone believes about their country in an 'Insert Name Here' kind of way?

Thing is, America is trying to form an Empire, even some of those in a position to know have admitted it, I believe a Bush aide spoke to Ronald Suskind of the New York times, telling him that they were now an Empire and made reality up as they chose it, and that the media's only job was to document it.

It's when people make comments like this, that makes me seriously worried that, not only are they deliberately misleading their own countrymen, but are actually rubbing their face in it, almost as if they are laughing at people for believing them.

Whether it's true or not, such arrogance in power will always lead to mistrust.