[Flipside]

Ok, I've been thinking about this and would be interested to hear moderate and non-accusing opinions

There has been a case in court recently where a man shot his pregnant ex-Girlfriend several times killing both her and the baby. He was found guilty of a double count of Murder, which seems quite reasonable on the surface.

But there the dilemma arises, if shooting a pregnant woman is a double murder, than that suggests the court accepts the foetus as a living, sentient, seperate being even whilst in the womb, which raises concerns in my mind about abortion. I don't like to have double standards, so why should I think of this double-murder conviction as 'ok' and yet still feel that Abortion should be a matter of Pro-choice?

It's not really a question of 'Is a foetus alive or not?' but more a question of, 'Would you consider this double standards?'

[Taristin]

I don't think I have an answer to that. You're right, it's a double standard...

...but perhaps, because in abortion, it's the woman's choice, yet in the murder, the woman never chose to have herself or her child murdered?


EDIT:
umm. After. Supposed to be after Flipside...

[Kie99]

It is double standards, because IMHO the Father should have as much right as the mother to decide whether the baby should be aborted.

[Flipside]

Doing it with a gun is a little extreme though

As I said, it's not about the 'right' to abort, it's about how we think about unborn children and the shades of grey situation that hangs over it.

The closest approximation I can think of is that, should a family decide to turn off a life support machine that is keeping a member alive, that is choice, if a third party came in and pulled the plug maliciously, that is Murder.

Edit : Hmmmmm... Let me phrase it another way, would you consider it this a double Murder or a single one?

[Kie99]

God thats a hard decision, well I think the abortion should only go through if both parents agree so, if the mother didn't want to kill the baby then yes it is a double murder.

[Flipside]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear there, I meant that, in the situation where the ex-boyfriend shoots a woman who is pregnant, killing both mother and child (the baby was not his, but that is, strictly speaking, secondary) would you consider this act a double or a single case of Murder?

[Tiara]

How far along was she? In Holland abortion is illigal after 22 weeks. If she was over that limit it would be a double murder. If not, then it would be a single murder.

But then again, we are one of the few people that allow legal abortion and euthanesia in the first place IIRC

[Kie99]

The point I was trying to get across is that I think it was a Double murder, but I was also trying to get across my problems with the abortion system. (i.e. the mother can abort a baby which is also someone elses, the father)

Anyway what's your opinion?

[Tiara]

Originally posted by kietotheworld
(i.e. the mother can abort a baby which is also someone elses, the father)

That is so wrong and so oversimplified.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

as far as i ma concerned, it was a double murder.  it's that simple.

[Kie99]

Originally posted by Tiara

That is so wrong and so oversimplified.

Care to explain why?  I know the mother has to give birth and everything but that is IMHO no justification for denying the father the chance of having a child.

[Flipside]

The Mother was 3 months pregnant.

I suppose the problem is that a child is a life in potential, I wouldn't blame a mother for aborting her child if the situation demanded it, i.e. the mother was too poor to be able to raise the child, rape victims etc, but this still strikes me as a double murder, the child was wanted and the mother intended to go full term.

I suppose it's just one of those shades of grey situations, but I constantly beat up my own opinions, it's the only way to be sure of them

[Rictor]

I say single murder.

But if it was anyone else, double. Cause if its in the family, then for some reason that makes it OK.

[Clave]

Hmm.. I thought the days of 'West Point Abortions' were long gone..

But, anyway, the point of 'life' or 'being a human being' is something you can argue about endlessly.  I'd just have to go with the legal definition that applies to your country, and say it's a double murder....probably...

[Mongoose]

Double murder.  No question.  No matter how far along in the pregnancy she was.

[Tiara]

Originally posted by kietotheworld

Care to explain why?  I know the mother has to give birth and everything but that is IMHO no justification for denying the father the chance of having a child.

No, I meant it the other way around. you said that the mother can decide when, why and how she wants an abortion. Here, if the mother is still married to the man who's child she is carrying, she cannot have an abortion without the consent of the father (unless there are extenuating circumstances, like proven adultery, in which case the issue would go to court).

I don't know how it's done in other countries (which is probably what you were talking about), but I'm quite pleased with the way things are done around here.

[vyper]

Single murder. Simple as that.

[Flipside]

I don't deny that part of my feeling it is a double-murder is because I want it to be a double murder. The woman was happy with a new man, and they were going to start a family, and this jelous bastard came along and took away everything and I want him to suffer.

Yes, that's letting emotion take a part in my decision, but as far as law is concerned, I think emotion should take a part, it's never as simple as the printed word.

[Grey Wolf]

Originally posted by Tiara

No, I meant it the other way around. you said that the mother can decide when, why and how she wants an abortion. Here, if the mother is still married to the man who's child she is carrying, she cannot have an abortion without the consent of the father (unless there are extenuating circumstances, like proven adultery, in which case the issue would go to court).

I don't know how it's done in other countries (which is probably what you were talking about), but I'm quite pleased with the way things are done around here.

In the U.S., it's slightly different. The father has no voice in the matter, no matter what his relation is to the mother. Incidentally, part of the problem with the entire abortion system in the U.S. is probably that it was legalized by the court, rather than methodically stated by law, leading to grey areas and unhappy people all around.

[Primus]

Originally posted by kietotheworld
It is double standards, because IMHO the Father should have as much right as the mother to decide whether the baby should be aborted.

I totally disagree. The woman carries the baby. Her body. Her choice.  The father can, ofcourse, express his opinions, but he has no right to decide anything in that matter.