[aldo_14]

Originally posted by KappaWing


That's just wrong. Why is this particular minor an exeption? A jugde's duty is to inforce the law, not go against it.

Political expediency I'd wager; basically, they (US / state government) want to change the law but can't (presumably for constitutional reasons or similar), so they want to have a test case that will allow them to circumvent said law.

Roe vs Wade established that laws against abortion constituted a violation of privacy; thus overturning all laws against abortion.  'Jane Roe' was IIRC a pseudonym which eventually emcompassed several plantiffs.  The 'original' Jane Roe (real name Norma McConvery or similar IIRC) has since become a born-again Christian and campaigned against abortion, which someone would probably mentioned sooner rather than later (so I'll pre-empt them); however, the decision itself is not based upon (AFAIK) a single idividual case but rather by the text of the US Constitution so IMO it's not really a valid point in the whole abortion arguement.

To be fair, this particular case is not against abortion per se (although it's obviously a step in the anti-choice / prohibition direction and probably calculated as such); it's being presented as judging the ability and right of a 13-year old to make such a decision as to have an abortion (yet presumably not judging the ability to decide not to abort).  It's not decided; there's an injunction been granted for psychological evaluation of the 13-year old; but it's still an ominous step IMO if the state feels so free to try and 'step in' to regulate decisions it disagrees with.

Originally posted by Sandwich
Can someone explain to me why there is demand (couples unable to have children), potential supply (unwanted (??!?) children), and yet no connection between the two on a large scale?

There are plenty of emotional trauma cases from women who, for whatever reasons, decided to have an abortion, and regretted it ever since. They don't want / can't take care of the baby? Fine - there's plenty of loving couples who would love to, and at least the biological mother wouldn't have the emotional trauma of putting one of her offspring to death.

Well, part of the purpose of procreation is to spread your genetic material.... there's often (I think) a desire not just to have a child, but to have your child.

In terms of post-abortion trauma.... that's something which can be applied in many ways to different things; what of the trauma of a raped mother who raises a child whose existance reminds here of that rape?  Or who simply can't handle a child for psychological reasons (one of the medical 'permissions' for abortion is the risk of psychological damage to the pregnant women)?

Pregnancy is not just a case of have a shag, wait 9 months or so and see what pops out.... the act of carrying a developing child will have its own psychological effect.

And besides which, why does it matter if a women regrets the decision to have an abortion?  It's not the states duty to regulate our lives and stop us doing things we might regret; ultimately all the state should do is let us know - in a fair and unequivocal way - the consequences of what we choose to do (and not to do).

Finally 'put to death' is an emotive and inaccurate term; the fundamental (or one of them) in abortion is whether or not the foetus can be considered alive atall.  Using that phraseology implies there is a definitive conclusion (and there isn't), and attempts to place moral baggage upon the opposing side of the arguement.

[vyper]

Plus it's not as simple as whether she raises the child or not sandwich, it's whether she carries the ****ing thing for 9 months.

If there's one thing that riles me up it's prolifers that seem to think a woman should have the child, go through that emotionally and physically traumatic experience only to spend the rest of her life instinctively longing for that child back even if she knows she had to give it up.

[aldo_14]

What we really need here, I reckon, is a few female voices on both sides of the fence.

[vyper]

Sadly the only female member we had I recall being on the pro-choice side with any conviction was Tiara. And when was the last time she posted eh?

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by vyper
If there's one thing that riles me up it's prolifers that seem to think a woman should have the child, go through that emotionally and physically traumatic experience only to spend the rest of her life instinctively longing for that child back even if she knows she had to give it up.

I find it ironic that we live in such an incredible age of contradictions and hypocrisy. One the one hand, our (read: America's) "justice" system is so overblown that we have this amazingly complex set of rules, regulations, precedents, and what have you to make sure that whomever the case is against has to deal with the consequences of their actions.

On the other hand, we resort to what some people consider murder to avoid having to have women deal with the consequences of their actions (I'm not talking about rape pregnancies, mind you). God forbid that they should learn to take responsibility for their actions.



Completely aside, does anyone know where I can get that advert that had this little kid being an absolute horror, throwing a tantrum in a store, etc, and ended with "Use a condom" (or something like that)?

[redmenace]

Originally posted by vyper
If there's one thing that riles me up it's prolifers that seem to think a woman should have the child, go through that emotionally and physically traumatic experience only to spend the rest of her life instinctively longing for that child back even if she knows she had to give it up.

And aborting a pregnancy is better. So instead of knowing that your child is alive and living well in a family that could care for it better than you ever could, afford it more opportunity for sucess etc., the person aborts the "non-person" going through life knowing that they are responcible for ending a beating heart and/or a developing life. While a loving couple go on childless. I should also mention these couples that desire a child compensate the person in full for nine months of pregnancy. Unfortunatly people are not aware of all the options. People like Planned Parenthood don't promote it enough as a viable option. Additionally, I would not make the mistake of thinking that the regret of abortion is less than regret of adoption. I have spoken to couples who have had their child aborted. They say, if they could do all over, they would keep the child. To be frank, it is a tramatic experience for a man and a woman.

[KappaWing]

Originally posted by aldo_14
Finally 'put to death' is an emotive and inaccurate term; the fundamental (or one of them) in abortion is whether or not the foetus can be considered alive atall.  Using that phraseology implies there is a definitive conclusion (and there isn't), and attempts to place moral baggage upon the opposing side of the arguement.

IIRC, many pro-lifers claim that life starts at the zygote. These crusaders are backed up by scientists some of them are even pro choice. I think the real debate is if a live zygote is equal to the value of a human being. Even if the zygote is alive, like these scientists say, IMO the value of life can be gauged based on how far the baby has developed... I woulden't care if I was terminated as a zygote or even a partially developed baby, because I wouldent have the brains to care about anything. You get what I'm sayin?

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by aldo_14
Finally 'put to death' is an emotive and inaccurate term; the fundamental (or one of them) in abortion is whether or not the foetus can be considered alive atall.  Using that phraseology implies there is a definitive conclusion (and there isn't), and attempts to place moral baggage upon the opposing side of the arguement.

Let me put it plainly for you then. You're an astronaut on the first manned mission to Mars. You get there and discover a native martian fetus, dead (ok, zero active biological functions ) and rotting in the sand. But hey, too bad fetuses aren't considered alive, eh? You might have gone down in the history books as the discoverer of life on Mars.

That's my definition of "alive".

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Sandwich


I find it ironic that we live in such an incredible age of contradictions and hypocrisy. One the one hand, our (read: America's) "justice" system is so overblown that we have this amazingly complex set of rules, regulations, precedents, and what have you to make sure that whomever the case is against has to deal with the consequences of their actions.

On the other hand, we resort to what some people consider murder to avoid having to have women deal with the consequences of their actions (I'm not talking about rape pregnancies, mind you). God forbid that they should learn to take responsibility for their actions.
 

In a sense, many are taking reponsibility for their actions - what makes you think women who decide to have an abortion do so lightly?

The main thing you point out is 'some people'.  The law, as it stands, respects that view; it just also respects the views of the other people, and gives them a choice.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by KappaWing
I woulden't care if I was terminated as a zygote or even a partially developed baby, because I wouldent have the brains to care about anything. You get what I'm sayin?

No offense, but that's an incredibly stupid statement. You didn't have the brains to care about anything (none of us did) even at a few months out of the womb. Oh, sure, we cry when hungry or in pain, but do you somehow think that that is some ability or change that happens to us during the Big Move/Squeeze?

[KappaWing]

Originally posted by Sandwich


No offense, but that's an incredibly stupid statement. You didn't have the brains to care about anything (none of us did) even at a few months out of the womb. Oh, sure, we cry when hungry or in pain, but do you somehow think that that is some ability or change that happens to us during the Big Move/Squeeze?

First, let's define 'care'. When I say care, I mean feel. If a baby is in pain, it cries. It cares about how it feels.

[redmenace]

Originally posted by aldo_14


In a sense, many are taking reponsibility for their actions - what makes you think women who decide to have an abortion do so lightly?

The main thing you point out is 'some people'.  The law, as it stands, respects that view; it just also respects the views of the other people, and gives them a choice.

Well, I will say it is hard to find an unbiased source for these women.

Woman goes to Planned Parenthood:"Abortion is your only alternative. Here I will even drive you to the clinic

Woman goes to Crisis Pregnance Center:"Keep the baby, we will even do an ultrasound for you. And here is some baby clothes, crib etc. for you. Also take some literature about adoption.

[Ghostavo]

Originally posted by Sandwich


Let me put it plainly for you then. You're an astronaut on the first manned mission to Mars. You get there and discover a native martian fetus, dead (ok, zero active biological functions ) and rotting in the sand. But hey, too bad fetuses aren't considered alive, eh? You might have gone down in the history books as the discoverer of life on Mars.

That's my definition of "alive".

Let me put this in another way.

Bacteria are said to be alive, a fetus is alive, every biological entity is in one way or another alive. However, when we discuss "alive" here, we mean if it's considered to be a human life.

And also, a person discovering a dead fetus (dead in biological sense) isn't discovering life at all.... afterall, it's dead!

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by aldo_14
In a sense, many are taking reponsibility for their actions - what makes you think women who decide to have an abortion do so lightly?

That's not taking responsibility. Yeah, it's undoubtable a tough decision to make, but responsibility lies along the other path. Living with the results of your actions.

"I can screw around with every Tom, Dick, and Harry as much as I want, and it doesn't matter, cuz if I get pregnant, I can just have an abortion." Doesn't sound like taking responsibility to me. And aldo, no offense, but if that fits your definition of "taking responsibility", you need to re-evaluate your understanding of the phrase IMHO.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by KappaWing


First, let's define 'care'. When I say care, I mean feel. If a baby is in pain, it cries. It cares about how it feels.

Exactly my point - you think that a baby in the womb doesn't react to pain if exposed to it? There's no magical "turn on pain receptors" switch during childbirth.

[redmenace]

Originally posted by Sandwich
No offense, but that's an incredibly stupid statement. You didn't have the brains to care about anything (none of us did) even at a few months out of the womb. Oh, sure, we cry when hungry or in pain, but do you somehow think that that is some ability or change that happens to us during the Big Move/Squeeze?

It is kinda clowdy when does a "fetus" actually feel pain. some say 22 weeks others say 8 weeks.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Ghostavo


Let me put this in another way.

Bacteria are said to be alive, a fetus is alive, every biological entity is in one way or another alive. However, when we discuss "alive" here, we mean if it's considered to be a human life.

"Oh, honey.... I'm pregnant!"

"Sweetheart, that's incredible! Boy or girl, do you know?"

"Neither, silly - it's not a human yet!"

Yeah.

Originally posted by Ghostavo
And also, a person discovering a dead fetus (dead in biological sense) isn't discovering life at all.... afterall, it's dead!

Yeah, yeah, I was kinda hoping nobody would be picky enough to point that out. I only said "dead" to avoid questions of "how would a fetus be able to survive in the Martian atmosphere??" But then I changed it to "Martian fetus", and forgot to take out the "dead" part.

[Flipside]

Thing is, the court is saying she's not mature enough to not have the child but is mature enough to have the child. It's double standards and takes choice away.

If it's based on a personal 'Pro-life' bias, and is being forced on someone else, that's no better.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Sandwich


That's not taking responsibility. Yeah, it's undoubtable a tough decision to make, but responsibility lies along the other path. Living with the results of your actions.

"I can screw around with every Tom, Dick, and Harry as much as I want, and it doesn't matter, cuz if I get pregnant, I can just have an abortion." Doesn't sound like taking responsibility to me. And aldo, no offense, but if that fits your definition of "taking responsibility", you need to re-evaluate your understanding of the phrase IMHO.

Maybe you should have some respect for the people who take actions you disagree with, first.  you're making a massive sweeping generalization about the motivations and thought processes of these women, using the result to insult them, and then claiming moral high ground.

Responsibility is facing the situation they are in, and making a decision based upon it.  Just because you don't like the decision, you can't write it - and them - off.  They make the decision, they face the consequences, and that's what I define as taking responsibility.

I respect your opinion.  I don't respect you regarding & effectively describing women who take this incredibly ****ing tough decision  - arguably tougher than any of us will make in our lives - as some kind of emotionless 2-bit whore.  And yeah, maybe some very few are.  But not all.

And I'm sorry if that sounds pissed off, but that's how I feel.

[Kamikaze]

Originally posted by Sandwich

"I can screw around with every Tom, Dick, and Harry as much as I want, and it doesn't matter, cuz if I get pregnant, I can just have an abortion." Doesn't sound like taking responsibility to me. And aldo, no offense, but if that fits your definition of "taking responsibility", you need to re-evaluate your understanding of the phrase IMHO.

Well, I've seen a statistic (this was from a fact sheet I found on the World Health Organization website) that 54% of people who get abortions were using contraceptives. So they were at least trying to be responsible. Labeling everyone who gets an abortion as a slut who's been sleeping around with everyone freely seems rather unfair.