[aldo_14]

But where?  (seriously, I want to listen to it now)

Was it in an in-mission message?

[karajorma]

Originally posted by aldo_14


Nope.

Sorry but yes. Look at the mission Apocolypse. You see nothing but fighters, bombers and cruisers. Certainly nothing attempting to access the node and prevent the Nereid from exploding.

 The earlier attack may simply have been the Shivans taking the chance to slaughter the civilians. There's no proof whatsoever that it was about securing the node to prevent the GTVA closing it.

 It's only after the Bastion is destroyed that we can be certain that the Shivans know what the GTVA is up to and lets face it they did bugger all.

Oddly enough both the Vega and Epsilon Pegasi nodes are actually visible from each other and there is no activity whatsover going on at the Vega node during the penultimate mission. That's probably just due to the ships limit but make of it what you will.

[Prophet]

She said it in a commbrief shortly after the portal was found.
I think it was commbrief of the first nebula mission?

[karajorma]

Aldo's correct on the age of the Knossos.

"Dr. Hargrove, Task Force Preliminary Findings (Excerpt)

The subspace portal is unlike any Shivan construction we have yet encountered. Though Shivans demonstrate considerable diversity as a species, all Shivan technology possesses certain distinctive properties. None is present in the subspace device, which means we must look elsewhere for the portal's origin. We do know that the device is very, very old, on the order of several thousand years."

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by karajorma


Sorry but yes. Look at the mission Apocolypse. You see nothing but fighters, bombers and cruisers. Certainly nothing attempting to access the node and prevent the Nereid from exploding.

 The earlier attack may simply have been the Shivans taking the chance to slaughter the civilians. There's no proof whatsoever that it was about securing the node to prevent the GTVA closing it.

 It's only after the Bastion is destroyed that we can be certain that the Shivans know what the GTVA is up to and lets face it they did bugger all.

Oddly enough both the Vega and Epsilon Pegasi nodes are actually visible from each other and there is no activity whatsover going on at the Vega node during the penultimate mission. That's probably just due to the ships limit but make of it what you will.

No implication they weren't trying to break through with that attack, either.  It's entirely subjective; they made a 'massive attack' upon the Vega node, but for whatever reason - repriotization, GTVA victory, diversionary attacks, the Shivans not having a clue of the GTVA plan or caring - it had apparently ended or moved by the time of the nova.

Or command could just have been sensible and launched counter-attacks to clear the way for the refugee convoys; the end cutscene does show continuing heavy fighting (which admittedly raises the question over why the Shivans don't give a **** about their 'small' ships as well as the dead Saths).

 I certainly don't see a conclusive arguement against the Shivans wanting to capture Vega; they could even have expected the Nereid (or a destroyer fulfilling its role) to come from the Capella side, as the Bastion did.  I wouldn't say it's the best reason - it's pretty derivative and still a bit flaky because of the points you've made - but I still think it's a useable one.

----
EDIT; what kara said about yon knossos.

[Nuke]

Originally posted by karajorma
Aldo's correct on the age of the Knossos.

 

i couldnt find prooof of the dateing of the portal either, it may have been mentioned in the vasudan com chatter when we hadto blow it up, otherwise i just pulled a number oyt of my ass. however one of the fs1 anchients monologs hinted that their node network may have been inter galactic, or it was just poetry. if the former is the case then it corelates with my theory to a degree. i get the hint that the ancients-shivan war was a lengthy battle as well. the shivans had of hostle ground to cover.

[TrashMan]

Originally posted by Bobboau
star. blowing up. big. boom.
nothing survives a supernova, not even planets.

it's simple, the Shivans have been killing stuff for a hell of a lot longer than 8,000 years, and this nebula is an example of such an event.

the Shivans wouldn't have been trapped by a colaped node, there the freaking gods of subspace.

Shivans are dependant on jump nodes just as we are, remeber?

[TrashMan]

Originally posted by karajorma


Nope. That was at the Epsilon Pegasi node. The Shivans sent nothing but a few fighters after the Bastion was destroyed even though they must have known that the GTVA would be trying to block the Vega node too.

Had they wanted to get into GTVA territory after blowing up Capella they would have had to have made some attempt to save the node, probably by capturing the Nereid and disarming the meson bombs.

Nope... The Nierd was deployed the second Bastion went trough.
It takes some time to react, and I kinda doubt that the shivans could get organized and stop the Nierd in one minute...especially since it  entered the node from the other side!!

[karajorma]

Originally posted by aldo_14
No implication they weren't trying to break through with that attack, either.  It's entirely subjective; they made a 'massive attack' upon the Vega node, but for whatever reason - repriotization, GTVA victory, diversionary attacks, the Shivans not having a clue of the GTVA plan or caring - it had apparently ended or moved by the time of the nova.

Which gets us back to my original point that if the shivans were trying to wipe out the entire GTVA they had a stupid strategy for it.

In FS1 the shivans concentrated on capturing and holding nodes and only then bothered trying to wipe out the GTVA. If the shivans wanted to capture the nodes it might have been somewhat smarter to use the saths to do so and blow up Capella a day or two later.

As I said before if you believe that the knossos was the only way into Shivan space then Capella was not simply about xenocide.

Originally posted by TrashMan
Nope... The Nierd was deployed the second Bastion went trough.
It takes some time to react, and I kinda doubt that the shivans could get organized and stop the Nierd in one minute...especially since it  entered the node from the other side!!

And yet with 80 Saths in system they didn't manage to swarm the node with bombers and fighters?

Sorry don't buy it. The shivans weren't seriously trying to kill everyone evacuating from Capella. The Vega node was nothing more than an interstellar skeet shoot most likely.

[The Spac]

Maybe destroying everything in the system doesn't matter as much as destroying the system itself, if they planned to continue to the next system where they could have done the same thing until everyone had no where to go.

[TrashMan]

THE NIERD ENTERED THE NODE FROM THE OTHER SIDE (that means, from another system).
The Shivans couldn't have stopped it from Vaga even if they knew it was coming!

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by karajorma


Which gets us back to my original point that if the shivans were trying to wipe out the entire GTVA they had a stupid strategy for it.

In FS1 the shivans concentrated on capturing and holding nodes and only then bothered trying to wipe out the GTVA. If the shivans wanted to capture the nodes it might have been somewhat smarter to use the saths to do so and blow up Capella a day or two later.

As I said before if you believe that the knossos was the only way into Shivan space then Capella was not simply about xenocide.

And yet with 80 Saths in system they didn't manage to swarm the node with bombers and fighters?

Sorry don't buy it. The shivans weren't seriously trying to kill everyone evacuating from Capella. The Vega node was nothing more than an interstellar skeet shoot most likely.

I don't particularly buy it either.  But I could see it being a viable explanation, because it's not explicitly contradicted by the game.  Regardless of how stupid the strategy might look; after all, it's not as if Command was the most intelligent bunch in the FS series.

The differences in Shivan tactics in FS1 and FS2 are as much explained by the difference in forces as anything else; the Lucifers rapid dash to destroy the GTVA homeworlds could be a symptom of its isolation (lacking the supporting fleet to move slowly - or destroy stars).

I simply don't think you can rule it out wholesale if, for example, someone chooses that as a basis of their campaign.  It's the least convincing alternative, but it's not disproven IMHO.

Albeit you can't really do the whole 'swarm the node' thing, because it wasn't really possible with both the engine constraints, and those of gameplay.  I believe there are briefing references to the Shivans 'flooding the system' with bombers, though.

Originally posted by TrashMan
THE NIERD ENTERED THE NODE FROM THE OTHER SIDE (that means, from another system).
The Shivans couldn't have stopped it from Vaga even if they knew it was coming!

The Shivans could have taken the Vega node, and thus stopped the Nereid from that other side. If they wanted to do a 'bunny-hop' style of xenocide, they could have attacked Vega directly and captured the Vega-Capella node.  

They did launch a 'massive attack' on the forces around the Vega node sometime after the 3rd last mission,  according to the briefing for the 2nd last mission.  It's not stated if this was to capture said node, or just attack the GTVA forces.  It's also not stated who won; the node is pretty much devoid of both GTVA and Shivan capships in the last mission IIRC.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by TrashMan
THE NIERD ENTERED THE NODE FROM THE OTHER SIDE (that means, from another system).
The Shivans couldn't have stopped it from Vaga even if they knew it was coming!

Did you completely miss my point about boarding and disarming it? We have no idea how advanced Shivan subspace tracking is but they managed to figure out what both Vasuda and Earth were without entering either system so it must be pretty advanced.

Hell any sensible general would have captured the next star system before blowing up the one he was in. Blowing up Capella when they did makes about as much sense as pirates setting fire to their own ship THEN trying to capture a new one.

And don't shout. It makes you look like an idiot.

Originally posted by aldo_14
I don't particularly buy it either.  But I could see it being a viable explanation, because it's not explicitly contradicted by the game.  Regardless of how stupid the strategy might look; after all, it's not as if Command was the most intelligent bunch in the FS series.

I never said it wasn't possible. Just that it was stupid Very stupid. And the Shivans aren't.

Originally posted by aldo_14
The Shivans could have taken the Vega node, and thus stopped the Nereid from that other side. If they wanted to do a 'bunny-hop' style of xenocide, they could have attacked Vega directly and captured the Vega-Capella node.  

That's the point I was trying to get across. Wouldn't it be more sensible to capture the Vega node first and then blow up Capella on the way out?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by karajorma


I never said it wasn't possible. Just that it was stupid Very stupid. And the Shivans aren't.

That's the point I was trying to get across. Wouldn't it be more sensible to capture the Vega node first and then blow up Capella on the way out?

Maybe their communications were ****ed up?

EDIT; incidentally, blowing up the star system kind of makes sense if you want to avoid the effort of clearing out opposition using regular ship-to-ship tactics.

[karajorma]

I agree. But as I mentioned in the pirate analogy you need to have somewhere else to go first

[TrashMan]

Actually, no, they couldn't have stopped hte Nierd.

Think about it.

Time it takes for the news of nodel collapse to reach the shivan armada and the one making decisions, time for the orders to get recived, time for fighters to launch, jump to vega node, charge jump drives and jump in the node, time to travel the node (about 10 minutes or so) + time to aactualyl destroy the Nierd (it's an Orion..lot's of HP)

Even if we assume the sghivans are far more efficeince in the organizaion and order giving, the jumping/traveling time is still much... 15 minutes is more than enough for the nierd (which is waiting on the other side of the node) to enter an explode.
Hell, one minute is enough to jump out and press the red bottun.

Secondly, even if they could track it in subspace it has no use. Once the Nierd is in subspace, destroying it means all mesons blow = node colapse.
If htey try to disable it, remote detonate = node collapse.

[The Spac]

Well with Pirates their probably fighting equal or stronger forces, where the shivans can just go to the next system and will probably have no worthy opposistion

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by TrashMan
Actually, no, they couldn't have stopped hte Nierd.

Think about it.

Time it takes for the news of nodel collapse to reach the shivan armada and the one making decisions, time for the orders to get recived, time for fighters to launch, jump to vega node, charge jump drives and jump in the node, time to travel the node (about 10 minutes or so) + time to aactualyl destroy the Nierd (it's an Orion..lot's of HP)

Even if we assume the sghivans are far more efficeince in the organizaion and order giving, the jumping/traveling time is still much... 15 minutes is more than enough for the nierd (which is waiting on the other side of the node) to enter an explode.
Hell, one minute is enough to jump out and press the red bottun.

Secondly, even if they could track it in subspace it has no use. Once the Nierd is in subspace, destroying it means all mesons blow = node colapse.
If htey try to disable it, remote detonate = node collapse.

Wow, that's a whole lot of assumptions.

Firstly, it's highly unlikely destroying the Nereid would detonate the meson bombs; they'd probably need a timed detonation sequence, just like when a sub or plane is carrying nuclear weapons.

Secondly, we don't know any of the times you give; first thing is that the Shivan command structure could give near simultaneous decisions (particularly in a hivemind or neural net type organisation; or also if they're hypersensitive to subspace as has been speculated).  Second, we don't have jump times for Shivan bombers, etc, to work with - nor do we have their travel times, or know if they even need to recharge.  If you remove or reduce recharge times, then a sizeable force could very plausibly have nigh-instantaneously travelled to the Capella-Vega node, and very quickly thereafter. Third, the Shivans already had ships engaged, or in the conflict zone, very close to the node - they'd just launched a major attack.

Thirdly, it's not 100% clear they didn't know the GTVA plan prior to the EP node being destroyed, anyways.  Firstly, they had Bosch and his command crew - all with knowledge of GTVA tactics.  Secondly, they would likely be able to anticipate GTVA tactics with regard to the attempt to seal the GD-nebula node by destroying the knossos, and by observing the evacuations.  Finally, they did send a fairly large number of fighters and bombers against the Bastion and her escort taskforce.

[Nuclear1]

I still stand by my theory that the Shivans obvious (or maybe not-so-obvious) screw-up in blowing a lot of themselves up in a heated inferno of star matter and flame was all of because of Bosch's influence in the matter... ETAK, communication with the Shivans, Bosch messes with Shivan communications to screw up the Shivan attack on GTVA space, yadda yadda yadda...

It could have simply been that Bosch wasn't as evil as everyone thought--he may have saved humanity by having the Shivans nuke Capella, but by that same move, divert 80+ Shivan juggernauts from the attack on the Vega or Epsilon Pegasi node, which surely would have:
[list=1]

• Utterly destroyed the GTVA fleet
• Opened the GTVA core systems to invasion

So Bosch did a lot of good--stopped the Shivans, deepfried dozens of Shivan juggernauts, and gave us a pretty little end cutscene for FS2.

So, therefore, the Shivans' usual tactics, as elaborated on by Kara above, of blasting through fleets and then destroying star systems was stopped by one madman with communications tech. Bosch wasn't bad, eh?

Actually, now that I think about it, couldn't destroying a star simply be the Shivan method of making their own victory really clear to their enemies? Maybe when they destroyed the Ancients in one sector of the galaxy, they pulled a Capella on one of the Ancients' more important star systems in that region, and then moved on to destroy the Ancients in another area, simply as a way to show their enemies that "You've gone too far, and now we're going to make you really pay for it"? Bosch might have simply told the Shivans that the GTVA had "learned its lesson", and therefore told them to give to give their final word on the matter--thereby nuking Capella.

I guess it would somewhat make sense that the majority of the Shivan fleet would get obliterated here--maybe when the Shivan were finished with the GTVA, they would finally put an end to the bloodshed by simply killing everyone in the system, including themselves? This still doesn't explain the juggernauts warping out at the end, however; although, they could have simply been going off to punish a less powerful trespasser...

[karajorma]

Those aren't the only assumptions either Aldo.

1) We have no proof whatssoever that an explosion inside subspace of any magnitude would be more than a pretty firework show. Every single explosion has been while a ship was entering or exiting a node.

2) In order for the Saths to return after wiping out the GTVA we're assuming that they are able to instantly jump into and out of a system with no engine recharge time (or they'd get roasted by the Capellan nebula on the way back). So why not divert on of the Saths from Capella to take out the Nereid? Don't tell me that they couldn't spare one. They spared one to take out the Colossus. Called it up with very little notice too.

Originally posted by nuclear1
I still stand by my theory that the Shivans obvious (or maybe not-so-obvious) screw-up in blowing a lot of themselves up in a heated inferno of star matter and flame was all of because of Bosch's influence in the matter... ETAK, communication with the Shivans, Bosch messes with Shivan communications to screw up the Shivan attack on GTVA space, yadda yadda yadda...

It could have simply been that Bosch wasn't as evil as everyone thought--he may have saved humanity by having the Shivans nuke Capella, but by that same move, divert 80+ Shivan juggernauts from the attack on the Vega or Epsilon Pegasi node, which surely would have:
[list=1]

• Utterly destroyed the GTVA fleet
• Opened the GTVA core systems to invasion

So Bosch did a lot of good--stopped the Shivans, deepfried dozens of Shivan juggernauts, and gave us a pretty little end cutscene for FS2.

Don't buy it. For that to have been Bosch's plan there are two important things you haven't addressed.

1) Bosch would have to have known about the Shivan Sathanas fleet before he started his rebellion. That's possible but it seems odd that the GTVA would know of it, bury it and then look surprised when they appeared.

2) More importantly Bosch's monologues consitantly speak of his desire to form an alliance with the Shivans and abandon the Vasudans because humans have no future with them. The only way I can reconcile that with your theory is if Bosch was writing fake entries for when the Shivans boarded the Iceni and quite frankly that's a little too far out for me to accept without good cause.