[aldo_14]

The Lucifer could simply be special ops; destroy the enemies key bases (i.e. home planets, installations such as Tombaugh and Ross 128), harass the fleet (or destroy it outright), and wait for 80 Sathani to come in complete the sweep (perhaps by nuking a few stars).  It's shielding could be simply for survivability as the C&C of an elite squad (albeit this doesn't tally with the weaker weaponry of the rest of the Shivan force), or perhaps to allow it to travel quickly through unstable nodes the Sathanas can't use (perhaps the FS1 fleet was weak because they needed to save weapons energy for such travel?)

For the Shivans, 30-odd years could be a rapid attack.

[Prophet]

We are talking about an alien species. Perhaps they just think differently than us.

Lucy did most of the job in the great war. Like killing Vasuda, Ross 128, Tombaugh (sp?) and just going around killing stuff. It was constantly on the move. What did the other Shivans do? Every time another capship was encoutered it usually got badly damaged, sometimes even destroyed... Without the Lucy GTA/PVN would have defeated the Shivans. Or at least it would have been one helluva fight. So it would have been wiser to send a bigger fleet after us than what Lucy had with it...

Unless the Shivans sent a shielded superdestroyer to the dirty job and to crush the brunt of the opposition. The rest of the "fleet" was just support. Cleaning up the mess and helping support the offensive.

What I mean is, that it was a Scout/Special ops/whaterwer small fleet and Lucy was just there to draw attention.
Sleek design, shields and two biiig guns (even if the rest of the armament is just poor), what an eye catcher. What chance would you have against that? So what if the other ships are perfectly killable when you are under the shadow of the Lucifer. Ancients fell for it. They had no way to harm Shivans so they lost their fighting spirit. Perhaps Shivans figured why would GTA/PVN be any different? They did not expect us to keep fighting, to overcome and adapt.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Prophet
We are talking about an alien species. Perhaps they just think differently than us.

Lucy did most of the job in the great war. Like killing Vasuda, Ross 128, Tombaugh (sp?) and just going around killing stuff. It was constantly on the move. What did the other Shivans do? Every time another capship was encoutered it usually got badly damaged, sometimes even destroyed... Without the Lucy GTA/PVN would have defeated the Shivans. Or at least it would have been one helluva fight. So it would have been wiser to send a bigger fleet after us than what Lucy had with it...

Unless the Shivans sent a shielded superdestroyer to the dirty job and to crush the brunt of the opposition. The rest of the "fleet" was just support. Cleaning up the mess and helping support the offensive.

That makes sense, albeit it's worth (IMO) noting that the Shivans were depicted as constantly advancing and crushing opposition outside of what's seen in missions.

[psycho_fergo]

hmm, i just though of something about the "shiven comm nodes". what if they were used to probe through mutliple subspace portals....kid of like a ship jumping...but instead its a signal...to probe other systems....they could even go through the really unstable ones.....for instance..if the GD node to the nebula was only really really unstable...then they could still send these signals through and perhaps even bosch had perfected the ETAK project after encountering this signal.and somehow knew it was shiven...so decided to talk to them...they told him to open the portal...but this kinda conficts with the cut scene of bosch saying...thier first contact was rudementry and crude....but perhaps he just tracked the signal to the point in space where this weak node was..and encountered the knossos...then identified it as the ancients technology...so decided to activate it...at the same time developing the ETAK just so he can try and allie with the shivens

i dunno....i think that is a viable explanation..

now for the lucy and saths...i think the whole danger of destroying subspace with it was a big problem for the shivens...because they knew that if we saw one comeing..we would take it out in the closes portal to them...thuse cutting off thier advance...and second, is that (i know its been said before) that our beams go right through the lucy's shiled like a hot knife through butter....thus making this very undergunned ship almost useless. it would be ripped to shreds by even a simple leviathin.

also..about the knossos protals being active in the other systems...perhaps the trinity went further than just the nebula.. and just didnt tell us about it....perhaps they got cought the shivens by suprise in the "in to the lions den" system....then on the way back...dodged the force that come through the node that wee see in the breifing thingo....the trinity probably just lost them in the nebula and reduced sensore ranges and stuff...but a small scouting party got them...and then we came accross them...and also.that would explain why there were only a few rahu miners in the nebula too..perhaps this was a previously un accessable area for the shivens...since it seems that everything came from the knossos probably beyond the other system that we didnt get to go to..the one the saths were comin through at...(trinity probl activated..then saw shivens...then ran like hell)

now cut that to peices for me

[pyro-manic]

Originally posted by psycho_fergo
second, is that (i know its been said before) that our beams go right through the lucy's shiled like a hot knife through butter....thus making this very undergunned ship almost useless. it would be ripped to shreds by even a simple leviathin.

Umm, I don't know where you got that idea from. One, there is no proof that beams will go through the Lucy's shields. They are supposed to, but the opportunity to test them has never arisen. I personally don't think they would, but that's irrelevant. We don't know...

Secondly, a Lucy wouldn't even break it's stride for a Leviathan. You're talking about a 3km-long supership with 800, 000 hitpoints - that's 80% of a Sath's armour - against a tiny cruiser with a few tens of thousands of hitpoints and one useless beam cannon. There is no Terran or Vasudan ship that could take on a Lucy and win in a straight fight (with the possible exception of the Colossus). As for being undergunned, all the FS1-era capships are hugely under-gunned. The Orion has (IIRC) 16 turrets. The Typhon has about the same, as does the Lucy. By contrast, FS2 corvettes have around 25 turrets, and destroyers have 30 or so. This is because of the advancements in computer technology between the two games - higher-poly models, better effects, more turrets etc. There is in fact a high-poly version of the Lucy, that has something like 45 turrets (I think someone from INF made it) - this is a more sensible number. Likewise, the Orion and Typhon should have around 30 turrets, to bring them in line with FS2 destroyers.

Anyway, with regards to the Lucifer fleet and the FS2 Shivans - I think it's safe to say they are different somehow. The ship architecture is different, as are the weapons and tactics. Why this is I don't know, but the Lucifer fleet undoubtedly served a different purpose to that of the Sathanas' and their attendant ships. Beyond that, who knows?

[aldo_14]

Let's not forget the Lucifers 'proper' weapon, the Flux cannon.........

[psycho_fergo]

hmm, well iff you too into acount that if that one beam turret ripped into one of its reactors...i think it would have a big impact...i know this is a very critical place in all shiven ships...and i think if you put i hole in one or 2 of them...it would be all over...but perhaps i understated with a laviathin...perhaps 5 leviathins then...that ok?

i do agree with the whole..different design thing...i noticed that too. also...do you think that the beam cannons on the big cap ships are of the time on pointed bits are for a reason..like perhaps just a wider "aim" coverage or for some kind of focussing chamber implemented...as these are usually more powerful than any other cannon.

thanks for rippin me to peices pyro

[pyro-manic]

My pleasure. I still don't think the Lucy is even remotely vulnerable to cruisers. Maybe if you had a group of corvettes you might stand a chance, but cruiser beams are really too weak to inflict enough damage before the cruiser gets destroyed, either by direct fire from the Lucy, or from the swarm of fighters and bombers it will inevitably launch.

As for the "beams on pointy bits" thing, I think it's purely aesthetic. The Shivan ships are insectoid in design, giving them lots of sticky-out-bits (technical term ). These are good places to put weapons for the coolness factor (look at the Sath firing a full salvo). On GTVA ships, the designs are far more conventional, so the weapons are mounted on the main hulls.

It could suggest something about ship architecture, however. GTVA beams seem to be modular in design, with the emitter lens, power cores and other gubbins contained in one unit (see the Colossus command briefing ani for this), so they are mounted in the main hull. The Shivan beams tend to be mounted (at least on FS2 ships) at the ends of the spiky bits, so perhaps they are fed from a central power source (maybe the ship's main reactor?), with only the emitters being near the ship's surface. This would imply that GTVA beams (and other weapons for that matter) can be easily removed, replaced or retrofitted, whereas Shivan weapons are less likely to vary between ships of the same class. Something to think about...

Aldo: I thought about updating the flux cannon for the SCP actually, with better effects and sounds and so on, but I have little experience, so it'd probably turn out horrendously ugly. It's a great weapon, though - someone should take a look at it.

[Kosh]

I have an idea. I think the FS1 era shivan capital ships were not fitted with beam cannons (except the Lucifer) because they required a lot of energy. Based on what the FS2 box said, I think that fleet was just a scouting force. They were armed with pulse cannons of various sorts because of the relativly low power consumption. With a much lower normal energy drain, this increases the operating lifetime of the ship by a bunch. A scouting force needs to be able to wonder around for long periods of time. The Lucifer was armed and outfitted with all these extra gizmos simply because it was the flagship (and because when it goes down, it cripples the rest of the fleet).

[karajorma]

That's actually a fair point depending on how long the Shivans are meant to be away from the main fleet for. Personally I don't believe Shivan space can be that far away though.

[Kosh]

But then again, maybe the Lucifer fleet was a scout fleet that was looking for something SPECIFIC? If they didn't know where it was, the scouting fleet would need to be able to roam around for a rreeaaaaaalllllyyyyyy long time.

Then they appearently found it and sent their main fleet into Capella.

[Nuke]

Originally posted by aldo_14
Let's not forget the Lucifers 'proper' weapon, the Flux cannon.........

you have a good point here, its called "Shivan Super Laser" in the tables, but i remember it being called a flux cannon somewhere in the game. but i still consider the flux cannon a precurser to the current beam cannon. it fits with the theory of the 8000 year old seporated fleet theory.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by pyro-manic

Aldo: I thought about updating the flux cannon for the SCP actually, with better effects and sounds and so on, but I have little experience, so it'd probably turn out horrendously ugly. It's a great weapon, though - someone should take a look at it.

Bear in mind the FS1 conversion bods made a kick-arse flux beam for the Lucifer, IIRC, though.

Um.. the idea of the Lucifer as a scout ship is interesting; the only issue has always been rationalising the obvious tactical moves it made, like the planetary bombardment and the attacks on key installations.

[Nuke]

perhaps the shivans consider planetary bombardment something a scout ship should be able to do, so as not to bother the sathani sun blowing up parties.

[aldo_14]

Yeah, there's always the general 'xenophobic murdering space aliens' bit on top of their more complicated machinations to consider, anyways.

[thegreenmonk]

personally I like Singh's idea - that the Shivans were there to stop Humans from destroying themselves.

[pyro-manic]

Originally posted by aldo_14


Bear in mind the FS1 conversion bods made a kick-arse flux beam for the Lucifer, IIRC, though.

I had something like the plasmacaster from Predator in mind - rather than firing a continuous beam, it fires a pulse with a trail - like in FS1. So you'd have in effect the same weapon, but rather than just using a trail, you'd have a pulse as well. The conversion beam is nice (kind of orange-ish colour rather than red), but I think it reduces the Lucy to just another destroyer, rather than something unique...

[Nuke]

you could use a glowpointed weapons model and create some freakish effects that way, i did something like that for ssj dante's primary weapon. just use a good model, some fancy texturing and of alpha.

[The Spac]

This is how I've always seen the freespace story line.




The Ancients were the original destroyers, in the first Ancient cutscene they talk about destroying and subjugating everything in their path.

The Vasudans are somewhat related to the Ancients, I am guessing that they were actually one of those subjugated, and forced to adapt the Ancient language.

The Ancients explore all the space they can, and own all of the known galaxy.

The Ancients create the knosses portal and create a great expanse of them and then they run into the Shivans, somewhere far beyond the nebula.

These portals are huge and in the game they say that it would take the Terrans years to make even one. So the network of portals setup beyond the nebula wouldn't have been done during a war. So the furthest portal is generally the last one they got up before they ran into the Shivans.

The Shivans send a massive fleet to destroy the Ancients.

This fleet includes more then 1 lucifer. Their worlds beyond GD are destroyed.

The Ancients taking heavy losses against the lucifer fleet disable the knosses portal going into GD.

However the node has stabalised as had happend with the GTVA. And so where they thought they would have stopped, a lucifer actually made it threw.

The home systems the Ancients talk about is everything on this side of GD that they owned.

During the fighting with the multiple lucifers they find out that it's shields don't work in subspace.

As the 2nd lucifer goes into the GD node the Ancients destroy it, and the node collapses. Cutting off the first lucifer fleet from the home systems.

However one lucifer is still on the GD side and has made its way to the ancients homeworld, the lucifer destroys it, and the ancients powerbase is destroyed. The lucifer has no opposition from that point on and destroys all the ancients systems.

The Vasudans have been freed and the Shivans are seen as their saviors, and that begins the legends of the comming of an all powerful race. (As a good thing not as a bad thing)

With all the ancients destroyed, which still takes the Shivan fleet ages because they don't know the systems on this side of GD and have to explore.

The Shivan fleet goes beyond Ross 128 looking for a way back, unfortunately there is none, there is only one jump node. So they head back to GD, unfortunately they run into the Terran and Vasudans and thus the great war begins.

The original Shivan fleet is out of date due to it's cut off from the main Shivan systems. At the time as the war with the Ancients shields on capital ships were thought as a good idea and beam weapons were new being tested on the newly designed lucifer class ships.

When the Ancients destroyed Lucifer 2 in the nebula-GD jump node, they collapsed the node. With this weakness of shields not working in subspace, any race knowing this weakness would engage the lucifers in subspace. Not willing to loose anymore nodes because of this, the Shivans stop putting shields on their capital ships hoping to reduce the amount of battles in subspace. Remember there is no portal on the nebula side of the node so the Shivans can't get it back up and running from their end.

They create a new design based on massive armour and weapons.

As for GTA technology advancing so fast, is only because of what they picked up off the Shivans during the Great War, if the Great War hadn't happend, the Terran-Vasudan fleets would have been only slightly more advanced then what they had in the great war, when the 2nd Shivan fleet would have attacked. Probably destroying all of the GTVA forces without them even knowing how to collapse a node.

I believe the Shivans unwilling to let any race exist ever again destroy the entire capella system instead of just the planets and would have continued on to do such at every system.

[Setekh]

Sounds pretty comprehensive The Spac, I like it. Welcome to HLP.