[Black Wolf]

Originally posted by karajorma
Bosch would be putting the best spin on any communications he recieved but for all he knows the Shivans might have sent the transports over because they though Bosch was inviting them over for chip, dip and pay-per-view Vasudan porn.

Based on that piccy in the highlights, no wonder they massacred the crew.

[Yogert]

Has anyone ever considered why the Lucifer pacified Vasuda Prime and attempted to do so with Earth? Could they and the destruction of the Capella star been similar? This goes back to the old theory of Shivans protecting subspace.
We know the Shivans didn't care about planets or resources; only the nodes. Maybe the reason the Lucifer destroyed Vasuda Prime because of the enormous amount of subspace traffic coming from it. The Lucifer pacified the system and glassed V-Prime to alleviate the nodes of primitve subspace traffic. Even though the Lucifer was destryoed, it still may have accomplished it's goal: eliminate the major subspace traffic of the two population centers.
Notice how 32 years later the Shivans destroy the Capella star. They did not make any major pushes towards either node leading to outlying GTVA systems. Capella being the largest population center with millions of refugees from the Great War. Subspace traffic, once merely a colony, became the largest area of subspace traffic in any system. The Shivans merely stepped in to destroy the Capella star and, in effect, collapse all nodes leading out of it (no gravitational field to hold the nodes in normal space).

[karajorma]

Originally posted by nuclear1
a) The communication technology was prototype and therefore quite crude, though the "crude" that Bosch was referring to might be because the fact that their first meeting was interrupted by a Vasudan attack wing.

I doubt it.

 

Although our first contact was rudimentary and crude

It's pretty clear he was on about the technology.

Originally posted by kietotheworld
I think Bosch must have been key to the destruction of Capella, becasue his Character is so heavily featured in the plotline, and if the Shivans simply took him and lobotomised him it would be a waste of 4 cutscenes.

The MindGames plotline has Bosch being taken away and cut up but due to the way he was set up by the StarBorn it's not a waste.

To be honest Bosch's fate whatever it was doesn't make those cutscenes a waste. What is important there is why Bosch was doing what he did. If the cutscenes had been used for something else we would have had no idea why the NTF were so interested in the Shivans and the plotline would have been much shallower and more confusing.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by karajorma


Remember though that

a) Communication was crude and therefore open to mistakes/interpretation of what was said
b) We have no idea how long the converation between the two was
c) Bosch would probably put the best spin on any ambiguous answer.

This latter one is the most dangerous of the lot

But there'd still have to be multiple stages of communication over several issues; introduction & receipt of message, cessation of hostilities against the Iceni, the 'alliance', and negotiating for transport with the shivans. (at the least).  i'm not saying it was 100% accurate or contained a lot of information, but I think it's highly unlikely you'd have the Shivans believing that, for example, Bosch was a Shivan POW asking for help.

I think the Shivans used and dumped Bosch like a 2-bit whore, but I don't think they didn't know what he was talking to them about.

NB; @Boomer - I'm talking about a error across a conversation that somehow manages to mistranslate every message in such a way that both sides have a completely different impression of the meaning of said conversation; that implies an error in translation of meaning and context, something not conveyed by words alone. (identifying this is a classic problem of any form of textual search, incidentally).

[karajorma]

Originally posted by aldo_14
But there'd still have to be multiple stages of communication over several issues; introduction & receipt of message, cessation of hostilities against the Iceni, the 'alliance', and negotiating for transport with the shivans. (at the least).  i'm not saying it was 100% accurate or contained a lot of information, but I think it's highly unlikely you'd have the Shivans believing that, for example, Bosch was a Shivan POW asking for help.

I don't think the Shivans believed that either but since the TV war started over a linguistic misunderstanding (With both languages being so close to each other) there's no reason to believe that Bosch couldn't have gone seriously wrong with what he thought was going to happen.

The possibility that he did understand is also valid though. I do believe that Bosch didn't suspect what was going to happen when the Shivans came on board though. Note the difference between

As I make this final entry my crew is preparing to scuttle the Iconic and board the Shivan transports.

and

As I make this final entry the crew are preparing to be slaughtered while I fly off in a Shivan transport laughing manicallly as I watch the Shivans blow chunks off of the Iceni.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by karajorma


I don't think the Shivans believed that either but since the TV war started over a linguistic misunderstanding (With both languages being so close to each other) there's no reason to believe that Bosch couldn't have gone seriously wrong with what he thought was going to happen.

The possibility that he did understand is also valid though. I do believe that Bosch didn't suspect what was going to happen when the Shivans came on board though.  

THat's a fair point, although it's equally possible the Shivans were simply lying to him to get onto the Iceni for some reason.  I'm not sure  what sort of scenario other than this would lead to the Shivans boarding rather than attacking the Iceni, and in either case they must have had some reason to go take the NTF command crew.

[The Spac]

The command crew are the only ones that knew about ETAK arn't they? Maybe Bosch said screw the rest of my crew lol and when the Shivans came onboard they opened fire lol.

[Boomer]

NB; @Boomer - I'm talking about a error across a conversation that somehow manages to mistranslate every message in such a way that both sides have a completely different impression of the meaning of said conversation; that implies an error in translation of meaning and context, something not conveyed by words alone. (identifying this is a classic problem of any form of textual search, incidentally).

You want a grievous translation error? Try this:

Replace every "E" in your post with a "Q", every A with a P, and every R and T with an M.

Now tell me that that doesn't make things a little complicated?

Now imagine conversing with a non-native speaker who believes that this is the correct way to speak and interprets everything you say correctly to be so.  You now have a monstrous language gap with more than enough room for misinterpretation.  You might get the gist of the message, i.e. numbers, coordinates, but that's about all.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by karajorma

As I make this final entry my crew is preparing to scuttle the Iconic and board the Shivan transports

[/B]

The Iconic?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Boomer


You want a grievous translation error? Try this:

Replace every "E" in your post with a "Q", every A with a P, and every R and T with an M.

Now tell me that that doesn't make things a little complicated?

Now imagine conversing with a non-native speaker who believes that this is the correct way to speak and interprets everything you say correctly to be so.  You now have a monstrous language gap with more than enough room for misinterpretation.  You might get the gist of the message, i.e. numbers, coordinates, but that's about all.

That's missing the point.  Misinterpretation is highly unlikely to throw up a consistent 'result' (topic, subject, context) under any form of 2 way communication.  The more likely scenario is complete confusion.

Also, you've sort of defeated your argument there; for Bosch to send the 'gist' you describe, he'd have to reach a certain conversational state.  To do so, that'd require a - crude and rudimentary - exchange of messages and responses.  

In doing so, for an appropriate response to be received in every occurance and still have an error, it would mean both sides would recieve the - mistranslated - message and yet draw a consistent context and meaning from it; because each message draws a context and meaning from the received message, for a 'translation error to occur would entail translation of meaning, not literal translation.

[Goober5000]

An example might help.  Here's one that appeared in Encyclopedia Brown...

Love letter dictated over the phone:
How I long for a girl who understands what true romance is all about. You are sweet and faithful. Girls who are unlike you kiss the first boy who comes along, Adorabelle. I'd like to praise your beauty forever. I can't stop thinking you are the prettiest girl alive. Thine, Tyrone.

Love letter as transcribed by the little sister:
How I long for a girl who understands what true romance is. All about you are sweet and faithful girls who are unlike you. Kiss the first boy who comes along, Adorabelle. I'd like to praise your beauty forever. I can't. Stop thinking you are the prettiest girl alive. Thine, Tyrone.

[Boomer]

I'm not disputing that Bosch didn't correctly make the rendezvous message, what I'm disputing is what might have been said other wise.  I mean, it seems to me that Bosch wouldn't just tell a Shivan ship to meet him and go away.  I believe there may have been some foreplay* involved before the Vasudans jumped in.

*Excuse me for the horrible choice of words.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Goober5000
The Iconic?

F**king Spellchecker.

Now I have to upload the page to my website again as that mistake made it into the FAQ without me spotting it!

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Goober5000
An example might help.  Here's one that appeared in Encyclopedia Brown...
 

But what of the reply to that?

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by aldo_14
But what of the reply to that?

Adorabelle took the meaning as it was transcribed and gave the guy a roundhouse punch, much to his astonishment. The mystery actually consisted of reconstructing the transcribed message.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Goober5000
Adorabelle took the meaning as it was transcribed and gave the guy a roundhouse punch, much to his astonishment. The mystery actually consisted of reconstructing the transcribed message.

Then the guy knows there's been a problem and both sides have drawn a different meaning from the communications.

[Bobboau]

what the Shivans hear:

bosch: "us, stop fireing, frend on bord"
shivans: "you are on that ship?"
bosch: "yes not enemy to us"
shivans: "wait a second, how is this posable, were you captured or something?"
bosch: "yes, taken our technology, useing me, by enemy"
shivans: "wow ****! that explains why your gramer is so fuct up. so you want a resque"
bosch: "yes, I am here /*gives location in ship were he is*/ others too, take us out. now please stop shooting, no more killing me and others"
shivans: "ok, we didn't know about you, sorry about trying to blow you up. look we'll bust you out of there as soon as we can get a boarding squad ready"
/*Vasudan patrole arives*/
bosch: "enemy here, this ship will be here /*gives coords*/ meet with ship to get me out"
shivans: "I see them, look we'll take care of these guys and we've already got a ship going to intercept the ship your on, don't wory, the basturds holding you won't know what hit them"


what bosch hears:

bosch: "shivan vestle, stop fireing, I am not your enimy"
shivans: "on ship?"
bosch: "that is corect I am not an enemy to the shivans"
shivans: "in time, make comunicate now, taken or other?"
bosch: "yes, I am useing shivan technology captured by the GTA"
shivans: "amazeing! this why is dificult talk you. do you wish to be taken with us"
bosch: "yes, I am here /*gives location in ship were he is*/ there are a few of my officers that I would like to bring with me, I would like to come abord one of youre ships. now please lets stop this violence, stop your slaughter of my kind"
shivans: "yes, not know, appologies for slaughter. will send ship for take you, when can soon"
/*Vasudan patrole arives*/
bosch: "a wing of GTVA fighters has arived they'll try to destroy us, the iceni will be at these coodranants /*gives coords*/ please send a ship to meet us there"
shivans: "enemy presence agnolaged, will engage, have vesles to get you from ship take with us, no fear, humans know not the glorius future with us"

I made an assumption that shivans don't have a name for themselves but only us and them. doesn't seem like too big a leap, but any of a thousand other similar screwups could happen.

[DarthWang]

What kind of race doesn't have a name for themselves?

[Hippo]

What says they do?

[The Spac]

Well you guys forget to see that the Iceni and the Rakshasa wern't firing so something must have been going right for Bosch.

Normally a Shivan ship fires on sight heehee.