[DarthWang]

I have a theory of how the Shivan supernova weapon works:

The Sathanas juggernauts combine their subspace fields and open a huge, planet - size (or possible greater) subspace portal right in the middle of Capella. In a few seconds, it sucks away most of the star's mass, and without the gravity of the extra mass to hold it together, the nuclear fusion causes the outer layers to explod in a supernova.

Well?

[aldo_14]

Only problem is that there's nothing AFAIK to indicate a subspace portal has a 'tug'; IIRC the tech entries describe the process of jumping as opening an aperture, but don't say anything to indicate that aperture has a pull upon the craft.

On the other hand, that doesn't rule it out as a method for the nova either.  So it's still possible (albeit I don't know astrophyics, so I'm not sure if you can cause a nova as seen in FS2 by removing mass in that type of way).

[DarthWang]

Well whenever a ship goes into a subspace portal it seems to be sucked in as it accelerates really fast.

Also, I don't think it really needs a 'tug', the matter at the core of a star is under so much pressure that it would flow into any opening, much like poking a hole in a balloon and then it flies around the room because the air is forced out.

Also, that method could create a supernova, if enough mass was removed fast enough. The same method is used in an episode of Stargate SG-1 (although the Stargate they used was way too small to remove enough mass in time).

[Fenrir]

Ships get "sucked in" to the portal because, as the FS2 Techroom says, their molecules are vibrating along the same dimensional axes as Subspace, causing the warping vessel to be drawn out of normal space. Anything nearby won't be pulled in because their atoms and such are still vibrating in normal space's dimensions.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Fenrir
Ships get "sucked in" to the portal because, as the FS2 Techroom says, their molecules are vibrating along the same dimensional axes as Subspace, causing the warping vessel to be drawn out of normal space. Anything nearby won't be pulled in because their atoms and such are still vibrating in normal space's dimensions.

firstly, for reference - the FS2 tech entry

[q]In simple terms, subspace is an n-dimensional tunnel between one point in the universe and another. A vessel can travel through this tunnel in a matter of minutes, making a journey that might otherwise take decades or even centuries at light speed.

A jump drive causes a ship to vibrate in multiple dimensions until its modulations are in perfect synchronization with the subspace continuum. A vortex opens, creating an aperture from an infinitesimally small point in the cosmos, enabling the vessel to cross the subspace threshold.

Two types of jumps are possible.

First, an intrasystem jump can occur between two points in a star system. Most small, space-faring vessels are equipped with motivators capable of these short jumps. The presence of an intense gravitational field is required, prohibiting travel beyond the boundaries of a star system.

Second, ships can jump from system to system via nodes. Until the Great War, only larger ships could generate sufficient power to use jump nodes. The development of jump drives for fighters and bombers in 2335 enabled the Alliance to destroy the SD Lucifer in subspace. Producing these small jump drives is prohibitively expensive, so they are restricted to missions that require pilots to travel between systems. The Head-Up Display indicates the location of jump nodes with a green sphere.

The vast majority of subspace nodes are extremely unstable, forming and dissipating in nanoseconds. Other nodes have a longer lifespan, existing for centuries or millennia before collapsing. The jump nodes sanctioned by the GTVA for interstellar travel are expected to remain stable for many years.[/q]

It doesn't describe the ship being sucked in, but rather creating an aperture-stroke-hole which allows it to travel into subspace.  The other thing is the use of 'vortex'; this can, I think, define a form of force drawing something in, but AFAIK the literal definition is circular motion ala water going down a plughole.

So non-'tuned' molecules can't cross that threshold, but it's not explicit that a ship enters it under anything beyond its own power.

That said, the Bastion cutscene is probably the best judge and it shows the wreckage being drawn into subspace.  Albeit thats not entirely clear either because the Bastion is able to stop midway by shutting down its engines earlier and I'm not sure if the oscillations required to enter subspace would still be present in the wreckage (or if a collapsing node would have special properties that would cause this to happen 'unnaturally').

[FireCrack]

How would that casue a supernova if all it's doing is removing the heavy fusionables? You'd have to remove the outer layers for this.

By removing the internals you are mostly removing what is providing more inward pressure than outwards, i suppose if you removed a large amount of the stars mass by this method the inertia of the outer layers moving inwards would cause hotter fusion but the atoms would have to go through several stages of fusion first.

You'd be much better off removing the stars externals.

not to say it is'nt plausible, but it's probably not the best way to go about this.

[Mefustae]

Originally posted by FireCrack
How would that casue a supernova if all it's doing is removing the heavy fusionables? You'd have to remove the outer layers for this.

By removing the internals you are mostly removing what is providing more inward pressure than outwards, i suppose if you removed a large amount of the stars mass by this method the inertia of the outer layers moving inwards would cause hotter fusion but the atoms would have to go through several stages of fusion first.

You'd be much better off removing the stars externals.

True, you've got to remember that a Star (in ultra-layman terms)is constantly undergoing many forces; the massive internal pressure is always trying to cause the Star to explode outwards, while the massive pressure of the Exterior is in essence pushing inwards, always trying to crush the Star into a tiny sphere, which begets Neutron Stars, White Dwarfs, Black Holes, etc.

By removing mass from the Outer Layers of a Star, one upsets the balance of the gravitation forces occuring inside the Star, and thus causes said Star to expand exponentially, thus creating a Super-Nova. Conversly, if one were to remove Mass from INSIDE a Star, it would do the opposite. The massive weight of the External Layers would finally be enough to collapse the Star in on itself, by no means creating a Super-Nova - and nothing like the [V] one that can travel many times faster than the speed of light .(This is just aquired knowledge, i've done no in depth study of the topic, so if i'm wrong - which i very well might be - please correct me)

Basically, [V] just made what's known as a 'Hollywood Explosion', It's in essence a big honking explosion that defies all laws of physics (most of the time) to end the game/movie/book. Usually brought on by extremely vauge means, these explosions are just a scapegoat for ending the game/movie/book with an - explosive - finish (pun intended)...

[Carl]

The shock wave seen destroying the entire Capella system was:

A. Traveling many times the speed of light due to the subspace tech involved

B. Time Lapsed

C. Not meant to be actual footage of the event, but simply a visual representation of what is going on. This is why the shockwave seems to move so fast, and why the planets are so far off scale that you can see them all as disks and not as points of light.

[Solatar]

I think it was meant to look pretty kickarse instead of be scientifically accurate.(it WAS kickarse..)

[aldo_14]

Indeed. Sod realism - eye candy always wins.

[Flipside]

My theory is that the Shivans used their pincers so activate a C++ routine inside your computer, and that is what made the star blow up

[aldo_14]

The dastards!

[WMCoolmon]

It looked to me like the Shivans somehow introduced a Catalyst into the process, essentially turning the sun into some kind of giant bomb.

I don't know enough chemistry to know how possible this is, but could the Shivans have caused the star to reach some kind of critical mass?

[Flipside]

I always felt more like they voided the core of the star, possibly they nick em for power sources? The outer layers would then collapse through the reduction of pressure inside the star and all hell would break loose

[StratComm]

My impression was always that the Shivans used the Sath-generated subspace field to compress the core of the star to the point that the heavier elements accumulated within the core of the star began to fuse.  Sort of like forcing a carbon flash.  It's not terribly scientifically sound, but it's as good an explanation as I've found.

[Goober5000]

This is physics rather than chemistry.

They couldn't have caused the star to reach critical mass unless they actually added mass to the star.

A supernova happens when the sun runs out of nuclear fuel and gravity overcomes the force of fusion holding the star together.  The star collapses and then explodes outwards.  Thus, the most "realistic" way a supernova could be induced is by one of two methods:

1) Halt all nuclear activity within the star.  This achieves the same effect as the sun using up all its nuclear fuel.  (This is the method used by Dr. Soran in ST:G.)

2) Increase the force of gravity within the star.  Once gravity overcomes the outward force of the nuclear activity, the star collapses as usual.

If you accept a gravity-subspace link, the second method is interesting to consider because it's compatible with the Shivans creating a "supernode".  The immense increase in gravity created a new node, but caused the star to supernova as a side effect.

[DarthWang]

Originally posted by Mefustae


True, you've got to remember that a Star (in ultra-layman terms)is constantly undergoing many forces; the massive internal pressure is always trying to cause the Star to explode outwards, while the massive pressure of the Exterior is in essence pushing inwards, always trying to crush the Star into a tiny sphere, which begets Neutron Stars, White Dwarfs, Black Holes, etc.

By removing mass from the Outer Layers of a Star, one upsets the balance of the gravitation forces occuring inside the Star, and thus causes said Star to expand exponentially, thus creating a Super-Nova. Conversly, if one were to remove Mass from INSIDE a Star, it would do the opposite. The massive weight of the External Layers would finally be enough to collapse the Star in on itself, by no means creating a Super-Nova - and nothing like the [V] one that can travel many times faster than the speed of light .(This is just aquired knowledge, i've done no in depth study of the topic, so if i'm wrong - which i very well might be - please correct me)

Basically, [V] just made what's known as a 'Hollywood Explosion', It's in essence a big honking explosion that defies all laws of physics (most of the time) to end the game/movie/book. Usually brought on by extremely vauge means, these explosions are just a scapegoat for ending the game/movie/book with an - explosive - finish (pun intended)...

When a star collapses in on itself, that does create a supernova. The inner layers collapse into a neutron star or black hole, and the outer layers explode into space. REF: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova

[Boomer]

The Sathanas juggernauts combine their subspace fields and open a huge, planet - size (or possible greater) subspace portal right in the middle of Capella. In a few seconds, it sucks away most of the star's mass, and without the gravity of the extra mass to hold it together, the nuclear fusion causes the outer layers to explod in a supernova.

First of all:

I am the ghost of basic physics!  I demand retribution for that statement!:nervous:

The problem with that theory is that a *typical* supernova occurs when nuclear fusion can no longer keep a star from collapsing in on itself from it's own gravity, causing a massive collapse of the core in which the element iron, the heaviest element generally produceable by a star, is squeezed together so hard that it finally combines to form heavier elements, releasing so much energy, a star can no longer hold itself together against the surge of energy, and it explodes, leaving behind either a black hole, or a nebula surrounding a white dwarf or some such body.

In short, a supernova is the result of the lack of fusion, not the excess thereof.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Boomer
The problem with that theory is that a *typical* supernova occurs when nuclear fusion can no longer keep a star from collapsing in on itself from it's own gravity, causing a massive collapse of the core in which the element iron, the heaviest element generally produceable by a star, is squeezed together so hard that it finally combines to form heavier elements, releasing so much energy, a star can no longer hold itself together against the surge of energy, and it explodes, leaving behind either a black hole, or a nebula surrounding a white dwarf or some such body.

In short, a supernova is the result of the lack of fusion, not the excess thereof.

You're on the right track but you aren't quite there. The problem with iron isn't that it gives out too much energy. It's the exact opposite in fact. Fusing iron actually takes in energy because the product is actually less stable than it is. Since the star was born the only thing preventing gravity from collapsing the star inwards was the enegry it was giving out due to fusion.
 With this now gone the pressure on the core is sufficient to cause the stars atoms to capture their electrons and collapse into neutronium.
 This produces a shockwave which smashes into the outer layers and causes the supernova.

As a result anything that can cause the same neutron bounce effect can result in a supernova.


I'm not convinced that suddenly removing the core of a star would cause a supernova though. There's no net gravity inside a hollow sphere so a new core would simply form relatively painlessly as far as I can see. You wouldn't get the sudden burst of neutrinos needed to make the supernova just by removing the core.

It still favour a method that just removed the photons. That would cause the neutron bounce as far as I can see.

[DarthWang]

Originally posted by Boomer


First of all:

I am the ghost of basic physics!  I demand retribution for that statement!:nervous:

The problem with that theory is that a *typical* supernova occurs when nuclear fusion can no longer keep a star from collapsing in on itself from it's own gravity, causing a massive collapse of the core in which the element iron, the heaviest element generally produceable by a star, is squeezed together so hard that it finally combines to form heavier elements, releasing so much energy, a star can no longer hold itself together against the surge of energy, and it explodes, leaving behind either a black hole, or a nebula surrounding a white dwarf or some such body.

In short, a supernova is the result of the lack of fusion, not the excess thereof.

Keyword: Typical

An artificially - induced supernova can hardly be called 'typical'.