[General Freak]

Why hasn't anyone mentioned the fact that the Japanese were considering to surrender before the bomb was dropped? Dropping atomic bombs would only kick in a door that wasn't even locked in the first place.

[Bobboau]

because trying to use minimal force in a war gets you concored.

[Rictor]

Are you suggesting that Japan posed a threat to the Allied powers, after the defeat of Germany and Italy?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by General Freak
Why hasn't anyone mentioned the fact that the Japanese were considering to surrender before the bomb was dropped? Dropping atomic bombs would only kick in a door that wasn't even locked in the first place.

Some did, but not the ones in charge of the army.  They were commited to fighting a battle in Kyushu (what would be the first part of Operation downfall) in order to inflict losses that would lead to a favourable armistace.

This sort of arguement risks falling into the 'could've' category, though - same as dropping the bombs 'could've' saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

Originally posted by Rictor
Are you suggesting that Japan posed a threat to the Allied powers, after the defeat of Germany and Italy?

A fanatical, imperial (wannabe) nation which still held 100,000 prisoners of war and over 600,000 people in concentration camps (not to mention millions of Chinese)?  One that'd commited numerous war One whose soldiers had chosen suicide over surrender in numerous occasions, and as a tactic of war?

I'd say it'd be dangerous to let that sort of nation retire and rebuild.

EDIT; put it this way, if Hitler had offered to end hostilities (but remain in power) after the liberation of France, Holland, etc, would you have expected it to be accepted?

[IceFire]

Originally posted by General Freak
Why hasn't anyone mentioned the fact that the Japanese were considering to surrender before the bomb was dropped? Dropping atomic bombs would only kick in a door that wasn't even locked in the first place.

I did...

But you have to understand that its not just "the Japanese as a whole".  There was movements within the government from 1944 and on (maybe earlier) that was considering the possibilities of peace with the Allied powers.  The war that they had started and were so successful at in the beginning had turned against them and they knew it was a matter of time before Japan felt the full brunt of the Allied attack.

There were many powerful militants who wanted to fight on.  There were a few who wanted to stop.  Eventually the militants were silenced and the Emperor spoke out...but these events did happen after the bombs were dropped.  The question is if the firebombings of Tokyo and several other major cities were just as effective at swaying the balance of power between the militants and those who wanted peace.  There's no definitive answer that I'm aware of.

[Kosh]

From what I've been reading, the Emporer wanted to stop before the first A-bomb was dropped, but his generals said no.

[EtherShock]

Disobeying the emperor? Hmm...I'd like to see some sources on them arguing over surrender. I never heard of this before.

There is no answer to the question of the bomb. There are many good arguments for and against each side. We all now know the consequences of dropping it. Let us just hope the world learns from this and make sure history does not repeat itself. Oh wait, apparently, no one has.

[General Freak]

Yeah, how silly of them to disobey their emperor when they're willing to die for him. It doesn't make sense.

[EtherShock]

Well, in a way, it makes perfect sense. There is a code of honor, and surrendering in this mindset would not be the "honorable" thing to do. Fighting to the last man, woman, and child however, would be. Hari kari, which quite a few officers committed near the end, is also dishonorable. However, there comes a time when you must swallow your pride. Pride is the crutch of the insecure.

[Fenrir]

The emperor did not interfere in the affairs of the generals, if I remember correctly. He made his opinion known to them but didn't actually outright tell them to end the war until after the second bomb was dropped. In fact, it was the first time such a thing had ever happened. Like EtherShock was saying, there was a sort of honor code in place that usually kept such affairs from happening at all. But the atom bomb brought the possibility that the nation of Japan could be destroyed completely even without a full blown invasion, and the loss of the nation was, as I mentioned earlier, a (if not the) primary driving force towards maintaining the war.

[deep_eyes]

yea the emperor really had no say in that time period of japanese politics, especially during war time. The prime minister at the time however wanted to stop a week before the bombs drop, but his generals attempted a coup (history chanel, forgot exact details). they failed etc etc., but the war went on.

but yes the emperor was ignored.

[MatthewPapa]

I say that nuclear weapons have actually prevented more wars than they has started (no new world wars so far....) Think about what would have happened if Russia/China went against the Allies shortly after WWII. The world would have faced total holocaust as far as economic and loss of life goes. Instead the newly invented nuclear weapons held everyone in checkmate and therefore we never saw WWIII. The deterrent factor is undeniable, and YES I am aware of their potential destructive powers. In my opinion the risk is worth the reward.

[IceFire]

Originally posted by MatthewPapa
I say that nuclear weapons have actually prevented more wars than they has started (no new world wars so far....) Think about what would have happened if Russia/China went against the Allies shortly after WWII. The world would have faced total holocaust as far as economic and loss of life goes. Instead the newly invented nuclear weapons held everyone in checkmate and therefore we never saw WWIII. The deterrent factor is undeniable, and YES I am aware of their potential destructive powers. In my opinion the risk is worth the reward.

This is a good point but we also have to thank an unknown person for (supposedly) poisoning Stalin to ensure that he didn't start a war with the West.  Apparently he wanted to.

Everyone after that felt that nuclear war was suicide.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by MatthewPapa
I say that nuclear weapons have actually prevented more wars than they has started (no new world wars so far....) Think about what would have happened if Russia/China went against the Allies shortly after WWII. The world would have faced total holocaust as far as economic and loss of life goes. Instead the newly invented nuclear weapons held everyone in checkmate and therefore we never saw WWIII. The deterrent factor is undeniable, and YES I am aware of their potential destructive powers. In my opinion the risk is worth the reward.

Let's not forget the number of false alarms, though; we lived under the sword of damocles during the Cold War and the situation is arguably worse now than then (more developing nuclear powers, especially Pakistan and India).

I think the risk is too much, particularly with respect to modern day munitions technology - simply because a single false alarm can start an automated sequence of actions that would kill all mankind, and even the worst possible conventional war cannot do so, so quickly.

Unfortunately, we can't shut Pandoras Box.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by aldo_14
Unfortunately, we can't shut Pandoras Box.

[color=66ff00]It's very easy actually, all we have to do is nuke each other into extinction and that'll remove all of the pesky evil.
[/color]

[Kosh]

What I am having a hard time understanding is why does the US and the Russians still have hundreds of nukes pointed at eachother even though the cold war has been over for almost 15 years.........

[EtherShock]

Because, no one trusts one another still. I suppose it also keeps those targeted in check? We have an old cold war missile base right here in town, but it's been long abandoned.

[Charismatic]

[pointlessuncareingstatement] yay celebrate the blowing up into bits, of those jap punks (except the good ones like nientendo who create the Legend of Zelda series games)[/pointlessuncareingstatement]

EDIT:
[angry]I think we should have blown over their whole country, nation, with atomic bombs. Massive slaughter. They killed our men and ships at peral harbor, they deserved to die. [/angry]

i dont like our military or our nation or goverment myself, but il stick with them on this. For some reason im now kind of angry at the japs for peral harbor. bastards..

[Taristin]

I'm sorry, but that was retarded.

[IceFire]

Originally posted by Charismatic
[pointlessuncareingstatement] yay celebrate the blowing up into bits, of those jap punks (except the good ones like nientendo who create the Legend of Zelda series games)[/pointlessuncareingstatement]

EDIT:
[angry]I think we should have blown over their whole country, nation, with atomic bombs. Massive slaughter. They killed our men and ships at peral harbor, they deserved to die. [/angry]

i dont like our military or our nation or goverment myself, but il stick with them on this. For some reason im now kind of angry at the japs for peral harbor. bastards..

I'd point you towards my initial post about keeping the topics as calm and least offensive as possible.

The Japanese people do not deserve to die for the actions of a few select military leaders.  Furthermore, you have no reason to feel anger for an event that took place over 60 years ago.  Its ancient history.  Read about it, understand it, perhaps stand in awe at hte magnitude of the event and move on.  The world has changed many times since that event took place.

Also try and remember the events that were set in motion following the Pearl Harbor attack.  The America of today was, in some ways, forged in the attack at Pearl Harbor (for better and worse).

My personal interest is in WWII history.  Particularly aviation.  Pear Harbor is of particular interest as it sets in motion so many things.  Having read books like A Man Called Intrepid (which I HIGHLY recommend you read for the REAL story of WWII) and innumerable history articles, I feel like I have a very real and somewhat complete sense of what was going on militarily, technologically, and politically during the late 1930s and through to the end of 1947.

As always, its a complex history with many faucets, elements, and events that are contingent on each other existing.  In a what-if world, the possibilities are endless when it comes to WWII as so many events were decided in a large complex sequence that could have easily swayed one way or the other.

I encourage you to read, investigate, and learn for youself many of these things.

In the meantime, the use of a potentially offensive racial slur and gross insensitivity has not gone unnoticed.  Consider yourself warned.  Further behavior will not be tolerated.