Author Topic: Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism  (Read 13253 times)

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Offline Kazan

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Hey wait a minute...

What's wrong with sadism, masochism or prostitution?


A) sadism/masochism - so long as it's safe, sane and consenual - absofraginglutely nothing
B) prostitution - absofraginglutely nothing [so long as the woman is doing it willingly]
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Offline mikhael

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Okay, now I've read the discussion and the linked article, and wow. I never realized what a dick Pat Robertson was. He seems so innocuous.

Seriously, I just don't get people's dislike of gay people. So they like their own gender. Its like disliking someone for likeing chocolate ice cream (actually I totally get that. There are no flavors but vanilla and butter pecan, damnit!). Its just... illogical.

Quote
Originally posted by Kazan
A) sadism/masochism - so long as it's safe, sane and consenual - absofraginglutely nothing
B) prostitution - absofraginglutely nothing [so long as the woman is doing it willingly]


Why does it have to be a woman? I can sell my body too, damn you!
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Offline Nuke

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
first id like to point out that the story of sodom and gamorah or however its spelled, is one of the most misinterpreted stories in the bible. its still the primary referance used for anti-gayness from the religious perspective. the story states that the people of the two cities are full of sin, yet in seems intentionally vauge about what those sins are. the part where the angry crowd was trying to "know" the angels, makes me think the people more or less wanted to wintess a miricle than get laid. it is the offering of the virgin daughters that tend to give people the idea that the story had anything to do with sexuality. i remember reading somewhere that the virgins may have been ment as a blood sacrifice rather than the popular interpretation. i believe the moral of the story was ment to be anti-rape or anti defiance of god and not anti-gay. i find it appaling that certain versions of the bible replace the line "to know them" with "to have intercourse with them". religious leaders will always try to instill their own interpretations of their texts upon their people. people in leadership tend to have issues with pride and arrogance wich tend to leat to bigotry. then you still have factors of language translation and any editing that may have occured durning cannonization. i am by no means a bible expert, i dont even believe in god, but it is a very valid point. anyone with a pre-existing hatred will always look for a justification for it in their religion, and if this happens with a religious leader it tends to affect a good majority of that leader's people.

my next point is marriage, which i think sould be strictly a religious thing and shouldnt have anything to do with government. the only exception should be tax cuts and other binifits for people with children (regaurdless of the orentation of the parents). also giving adoption rights to gay couples would be binifitial to society.

i also think it is wrong to label gay people as sinners. to call somone a sinner seems to be rather offensive to some people, gay christians for example. iirc the bible seems to say more about leaving judgments up to god than it does about being gay. if being gay was so bad you would find more referances to it in the bible, and in far less vauge context. it seems less sinfull to be gay, yet have an honest relationship, than it would to be a straight cheater. it seems also to be a violation of rights to deny people the right to an intimite relationship, simply on the grounds of homosexuality. the church saying its ok to be gay, so long as you dont have sex, seems rather unfair.
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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Quote
Originally posted by SadisticSid
BTW, on the issue of couples' tax benefits and allowances, I'd prefer it that neither gay or straight couples were eligible - after all, why does having a piece of paper from the registry office mean you contribute to society, especially when it can be anulled at will? Couples who raise children are a different story; you need to reproduce to keep the population from declining, which would have disastrous effects for a nation - so it'd be justifiable to benefit them in some way, especially when raising children can be so expensive.

Nah, not if it it's a gradual decline. Japan's population is in decline and you don't see them falling to pieces.

Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau

well then in that case it's practicly a choice.

this seems like a genetic thing, given how I do beleive there is documented diferences in the structure of the brain (though this could just as equaly likely be from harmonal stuff during pregnancy) and things of that nature. however I doubt the distinctions are as black and white as Kaz was makeing it sound.

as for getting selected out, that might have gotten a help ironicly from the prudey customs of many cultures, were homosexuals that would have otherwise taken a same sex mate were forced to act against there nature and mate with someone of the opposet sex, though it seems like humans have an exadurated level that even that wouldn't completely acount for, not supriseing seeing as the second most closely related animal (the bonobo) is the most "hell yeah I swing that way!" one on the planet. but evolution sometimes works in less than streightforward way, perhapes haveing a homosexual in your family does, or at one time did, provide some sort of evolutionary advantage.

however if homosexuality is in fact a disadvantage as it does on the surface at least apear to be, then the best way to get rid of the problem would in fact to do nothing about it, let people live life the way they want to live, if they have some sort of tendancy twards a disadvantagus lifestyle then they will become extinct in a few generations.

but whatever the case may be it has about as much baring on weather a person is 'good' or 'bad' as does being right or left handed.

Well, said! Ironically, you were thought to be a bad person a long time ago if you were left handed.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
actualy that's sort of why I used that reference.

I wish we had more fundies around here, I want someone to chalenge me damnit!
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Offline mikhael

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
this seems like a genetic thing, given how I do beleive there is documented diferences in the structure of the brain (though this could just as equaly likely be from harmonal stuff during pregnancy) and things of that nature.


About a year ago, the results of a study of twins raised in heterolingual vs homolingual environments were announced. They studied twins adopted by seperate families and compared the brains of homolingual twins (both twins were raised speaking the same language) and heterolingual twins (twins were raised speaking different languages). As a control, they studied twins who grew up in the same household.

In gross detail, non-seperated twins and homolingual twins showed similar structures in the linguistic centers of the brain. However, heterolingual twins showe differences in gross and fine detail in the structures of the  linguistic centers of their brains.

If something as ephemeral as language can determine the physical structure of the brain then anything can. The root determiner of sexual identity and preference is likely to be something more complex than the mere structure of the brain, or genes themselves, or society, etc. There's too many fiddly bits here to even consider which one might contribute, really.
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Offline Kazan

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
mik we can locate "strong determinates" like the xq27 mutation
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Offline Nuke

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Quote
Originally posted by Kazan


A) sadism/masochism - so long as it's safe, sane and consenual - absofraginglutely nothing
B) prostitution - absofraginglutely nothing [so long as the woman is doing it willingly]


i have to disagree. both of theese have such a negative effect on society, a lays the groundwork for **** like child abuse, and b has the side effects of propagating stds and typically involve organized crime. you honestly think that people are responsible enough to carry out that kind of behavior in a safe manor? not all humans are as bright as you and i you know :D

Quote
Originally posted by mikhael


About a year ago, the results of a study of twins raised in heterolingual vs homolingual environments were announced. They studied twins adopted by seperate families and compared the brains of homolingual twins (both twins were raised speaking the same language) and heterolingual twins (twins were raised speaking different languages). As a control, they studied twins who grew up in the same household.

In gross detail, non-seperated twins and homolingual twins showed similar structures in the linguistic centers of the brain. However, heterolingual twins showe differences in gross and fine detail in the structures of the  linguistic centers of their brains.

If something as ephemeral as language can determine the physical structure of the brain then anything can. The root determiner of sexual identity and preference is likely to be something more complex than the mere structure of the brain, or genes themselves, or society, etc. There's too many fiddly bits here to even consider which one might contribute, really.


i dont really think you can compair homosexuality to language like that. language is something that has to be programmed in, homosexuality is something you either are or are not.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2005, 10:15:03 pm by 766 »
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Offline Bobboau

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
I was useing that as an example, kaz's evedence is also suportive of genetic factors playing an important role, even if it isn't completly conclusive.
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Offline Kazan

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
i hope the rest of that post was sarcasm just like the last sentance
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Offline Nuke

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Quote
Originally posted by Kazan
i hope the rest of that post was sarcasm just like the last sentance


it is possible to be sarcastic and serious at the same time.
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Offline mikhael

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
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Originally posted by Nuke
i have to disagree. both of theese have such a negative effect on society, a lays the groundwork for **** like child abuse, and b has the side effects of propagating stds and typically involve organized crime. you honestly think that people are responsible enough to carry out that kind of behavior in a safe manor? not all humans are as bright as you and i you know :D

This thread isn't for that conversation. If you want, though, you and I can have a conversation in PM's or email about it. Let me just say your're completely wrong on point A and you're more than a bit wrong on point B, unless you limit your thinking entirely to the United States.
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Offline Bobboau

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
nuke ...sorry but... what kind of horsh shit responce was that? either you mean what you say or you don't.
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Offline mikhael

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Nah, he's right. "Ha ha, only serious" is valid. He can be sarcastic in tone and still stand by what he said.

It doesn't change the fact that he's wrong.
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Offline Nuke

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
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Originally posted by Nuke


i have to disagree. both of theese have such a negative effect on society, a lays the groundwork for **** like child abuse, and b has the side effects of propagating stds and typically involve organized crime. you honestly think that people are responsible enough to carry out that kind of behavior in a safe manor? not all humans are as bright as you and i you know :D


so maybey i was a little bit bad when i insulted the intelegence af a majority of the human race. perhaps youve mistaken me for a uber libral with good mental health. i might be a little bit libral but im no extremist. and yes this is based on my limited view of the situation in the us. call me wrong, i do not care. uber liberals have the tendancy of overestimating the capabilities of individuals..
« Last Edit: August 14, 2005, 10:42:58 pm by 766 »
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Offline mikhael

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Nuff said. Let him have his opinion.
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Offline Black Wolf

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
perhapes haveing a homosexual in your family does, or at one time did, provide some sort of evolutionary advantage.


There's a huge evolutionary advantage to having homosexuals in your family group... just not for the homosexuals. In social groups led by a breeding pair (which is the norm for most social animals, though not always, I believe, true of the more intelligent ones), they provide all the benefits of additional members of the pack - assisting in food gathering, assisting with defense, assising with communal offspring raising etc. etc., but they will never challenge the leaders for breeding rights.

That said, I don't see how it could be carried through the generations, as it's clearly a genetic disadvantage not to be able to reproduce.
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Offline redmenace

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Quote
Originally posted by Kazan
lol black

SadisticSid: there are a lot of people here in the US that subscribe to that **** - 38 states have passed state laws prohibiting homosexuals from marrying
Those states are within their rights to do so.(although case law might indicate differently) However, those same states have to respect any other state mariage according to interstate compact. That said from a libertarian perspective these people should be free to do as they please including getting marrying whom ever they please regaurdless of a "right to privacy."
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Offline Ford Prefect

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
Well, whether or not it serves an evolutionary advantage, I do find it significant that homosexuality is by no means exclusive to humans.
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Offline mikhael

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Der ewige Jude vs Anti-gayism
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Originally posted by redmenace
However, those same states have to respect any other state mariage according to interstate compact.


Actually, Clinton signed off on a bill that basically threw that one out. States do NOT have to recognize marriages formed in other states that are deemed illegal locally.
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