[Sandwich]

Uhm, yeah. Israel's disengagement from the Palestinians in Gaza is beginning today, basically. Officers are handing out evacuation orders to the residents of Gush Katif, etc. Evacuation proper begins Wednesday from what I recall.

There are more reporters here for this thing than there ever were for any of Israel's wars - something on the order of four thousand foreign reporters.

This has the potential to break out into civil war, something that we've been praying against no matter what else happens.

Anyway, there wasn't a thread on it yet, so here you go. Let the news links begin.

[redmenace]

Now lets watch the Gaza Strip Fall to pieces and reach a new level of absolute poverty. And My Prediction: They[Palestinians], will blame the jews and not their own leadership.

[Kosh]

It's already fallen into pieces and abolute poverty.


I guess we'll see what the "new" Palestinian government is made of........

[redmenace]

Originally posted by Kosh
It's already fallen into pieces and abolute poverty.


I guess we'll see what the "new" Palestinian government is made of........

I know, but I am saying that it will only get worse.

[Kosh]

I guess we'll find out soon enough.


And I thought I was pessimistic.......

[Rictor]

Obviously you know the situation better than me Sandwich, but I don't think civil war is too likely. Despite dissenters among the army and police, the impression that I get is that the majority, both among the security services and the population in general support the disengagement, while those who oppose it are unwilling to physically attack their fellow Jews over the matter. They may be very vocal, but they are still a minority. My predicition that Sharon will go ahead with the plan, no matter what. The settlers don't seem to have any really big ace up their sleeve (Netanyahu resigned and Sharon barely even flinched) so the best (worst) they can do is hold rallies and get soldiers to disobey. That only delays the inevitable, it doesn't reverse the situation.

[mikhael]

Besides, if they want to rebel over being ordered to leave land they never should have settled, tough. They knew the stakes when they joined the game.

[Rictor]

Well, it's all part of the Biblical Jewish homeland to them, so somehow I doubt the word of politicians, whether Israeli or otherwise, would be held in higher regard than the directives of God.

Which, I must admit, is a very seductive point of view. The legitimacy of this and that can be debated ad nasueum. But you can't very well second-guess the Big G.

[Bobboau]

all they need to do is say, in 48 hours we won't protect you anymore, you will officaly be liveing in palistine and subject to there laws government and police/military/ect. we won't protect you and we won't avenge you cause we told you to get the hell out, but no, you knew better.

[Rictor]

Well, for that they would need to revoke their citizenship and whatnot. And it would still be complicity in murder, which is something few Israelis would be willing to stand by.

Still, I hear that some settlers have actually taken out Palestinian passports and have sought the help of the Palestinian Authority, just so they can stay put.

[redmenace]

Originally posted by Kosh
I guess we'll find out soon enough.


And I thought I was pessimistic.......

I think this way because I have listened to people that know and have been there and the whole Palestinia Authority structure, down to the gaurds at border crossings, are absolutly corrupt. The whole area under the PA has been described as a giant prison. Hamas, the terrorist organizations, is more honest and trustworthy than the PA.

[Black Wolf]

Originally posted by redmenace
I think this way because I have listened to people that know and have been there and the whole Palestinia Authority structure, down to the gaurds at border crossings, are absolutly corrupt. The whole area under the PA has been described as a giant prison. Hamas, the terrorist organizations, is more honest and trustworthy than the PA.

Well that's what you get. In France, during the Nazi occupation, who were more trustworthy - the resistance, or the compliers? Same situation.

[aldo_14]

I think, because of Arafats death and the new PA leadership seeming a bit more willing to negotiate this is slightly less likely to go tits up than I had feared, as there's been indications of some sort of co-ordination between the Israeli army and PA security forces.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Rictor
Obviously you know the situation better than me Sandwich, but I don't think civil war is too likely. Despite dissenters among the army and police, the impression that I get is that the majority, both among the security services and the population in general support the disengagement, while those who oppose it are unwilling to physically attack their fellow Jews over the matter.

I'm not too sure they are the minority, although it hardly matters what opinion holds majority - there was no democratic process involving the people in this decision.

But majority or minority, you don't need 50/50 to have a civil war. :-/

However, your last point there is the strongest argument against the possibility of civil war; in all the demonstrations against the pullout, there has been an overriding directive from the leaders of the demonstrations to refrain from any violence whatsoever, a directive which - by and large - has been heeded. From what I hear, the soldiers blocking the marchers' progress towards Gush Katif a few weeks ago were very... impressed? touched? by the peaceful nature of the demonstrators.

Currently, the most active method of resistance I've heard about is that the settlers plan on shaming the soldiers by taking pictures with them, pictures they say they will show to their children and grandchildren, saying, "These are the people who kicked us out of our homes." Kinda underhanded, but at least it's peaceful.

Originally posted by mikhael
Besides, if they want to rebel over being ordered to leave land they never should have settled, tough. They knew the stakes when they joined the game.

The ironic thing is that it was Sharon himself who urged on the whole settlement process, and who told the settlers never to leave no matter what happens. Which explains why so many hold him to be a traitor.

Originally posted by Bobboau
all they need to do is say, in 48 hours we won't protect you anymore, you will officaly be liveing in palistine and subject to there laws government and police/military/ect. we won't protect you and we won't avenge you cause we told you to get the hell out, but no, you knew better.

I actually saw on the local news a report of a guy and his family who plan on staying in their home, and have applied for Palestinian citizenship. They say that if their country is willing to forsake them, they're willing to forsake their country.

Originally posted by Rictor
Still, I hear that some settlers have actually taken out Palestinian passports and have sought the help of the Palestinian Authority, just so they can stay put.

Oh, hey, yeah, that.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Sandwich
The ironic thing is that it was Sharon himself who urged on the whole settlement process, and who told the settlers never to leave no matter what happens. Which explains why so many hold him to be a traitor.

Yeah, but I've always said Sharon is an ass. He's just shown himself to be a politician.

[Kosh]

The ironic thing is that it was Sharon himself who urged on the whole settlement process, and who told the settlers never to leave no matter what happens. Which explains why so many hold him to be a traitor.

Those people never thought that politicians flip-flop a lot.

[aldo_14]

Flip flop?

[redmenace]

Originally posted by aldo_14
I think, because of Arafats death and the new PA leadership seeming a bit more willing to negotiate this is slightly less likely to go tits up than I had feared, as there's been indications of some sort of co-ordination between the Israeli army and PA security forces.

A different leadership isn't going to automatically change the atmosphere of the PA. They have to clean house of the corruption.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by mikhael
Besides, if they want to rebel over being ordered to leave land they never should have settled, tough. They knew the stakes when they joined the game.

Pretty much my view on the matter. And if they trusted a two-faced war crime committing bastard like Sharon in the first place then that only makes them even more stupid.

[Black Wolf]

Originally posted by aldo_14
Flip flop?
http://www.shoptybee.com/images/very-jeri/green-flip-flop-lrg.jpg

Thongs.