[Ford Prefect]

I doubt it. Look how angry people get.

[Nuclear1]

Originally posted by Charismatic
I think they should use their army to slaughter all the palistinians and take their lands from them.

Wow. Just wow. I do hope that you never ever command anything more military than an RTS game.

That said, I would like to know exactly why you think that killing Arabs is the solution to the Israeli-Palestinian issue. Think about it: if Israel did kill the Palestinians, and even if Iran doesn't have a fully-functional nuclear program, that one spark would send the Arab world down on Israel.

So, what is it, mass slaughter of both Jews and Arabs, or even the slightest hope of peace? Bear in mind that I support Israel all the way and am slightly shaken up by the withdrawal, but I'm not nearly as fanatical as... no, just no. As long as our Mr. Sandwich and his people exist, all I can do is hope for the best.

[redmenace]

Actually not all of the peoples of the land were killed. Israel, IIRC, accidentally made a peace treaty with some of them.

[Rictor]

The Bedouins for example, who IIRC have quite an examplary record of service in the IDF.

Just ignore the "God said so" arguements, for obvious reasons.

[Kosh]

Originally posted by Charismatic
........

Where do you get all this stuff from? Do you actually believe all this non-sense?

Wow..Not really theirs.God said so, thus, yes, it was theirs.

Whoa, so you consider the UN to be God? Scary.

[karajorma]

It was theirs because they fought for it and won it. Would not have won it without Gods help.

So by similar logic if they were to lose a war or get kicked off of their land that would be cause God willed it too right?

Didn't see God helping much when the romans invaded.

[Sandwich]

Not to derail this thread any more than it already has been, but to address that "God's will" issue from a purely Christian perspective... and hopefully I'll keep it nice and short.

God's loves every man, woman, and child on the planet (yes, and even those crazy astro/cosmonaughts off the planet!), and does not want even one to perish (2 Peter 3:9). So I can say with assurance that the Holocaust, for example, was not God's will.

However, He also has granted us free will, even when we choose things in opposition to His will. This shouldn't be that hard to comprehend, as many families operate this way. "Son, I'd really prefer if you'd stop hanging out with that gang - they're just trouble. But I'm not gonna force you; you're old enough to make your own decisions." So just because something's not His will, doesn't mean He's gonna force the issue.

There is also the matter of things that God allows to happen, in opposition to His will, things which He then turns around for good. In our example, out of the ashes of the Holocaust, the state of Israel was born.

Anyway, I hope that helps some of you understand these things. Now, back to your regularly scheduled bickering.

[redmenace]

Originally posted by karajorma


So by similar logic if they were to lose a war or get kicked off of their land that would be cause God willed it too right?

Didn't see God helping much when the romans invaded.

Really? In a way he did, according to the bible,

Luke 2:4 (New International Version)
    4So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David.

They went there because of the census that was taken by the romans so that the prophecy would be fullfilled. So in a way, God never forsaked his people.

As per the the invasions, the book of judges illustrates a pattern, of Israel falling away from God, repenting, and being restored. See sometimes, we all need to hit rock bottum before we start to sail straight. Frankly as children, the beast thing my parents did for me was to allow me to make mistakes and use my freewill to learn.

[karajorma]

In which case who's to say taking Gaza away from the Jewish settlers isn't more of the same then?

[redmenace]

You mean God turning his back on them?

[karajorma]

Or doing it for the good of the settlers. That's why the romans kicked them out according to you. Why isn't this more of the same then?

[Roanoke]

Originally posted by Sandwich
There is also the matter of things that God allows to happen, in opposition to His will, things which He then turns around for good. In our example, out of the ashes of the Holocaust, the state of Israel was born.

No offence mate but if it was God's will that created Israel, and I was Jewish, I'd be pretty pissed off at Him right now. I mean, a patch of desert surrounded by hostile countries. Not much really is it ?

[redmenace]

I never said the romans kicked them out for their own good. The romans carried them off for their own reasons, of which I don't know. After the cruxifiction of christ, it is considered that the old covenant that god had with israel was over. It can also be argued that the diaspera served a greated purpose, particularly the Romans sacking Jeruselem, which in fact fullfilled another prophecy, served to disperse christianity. However, I do not know how the Jewish faith views all of this or how they explain how God had seemingly forsaken them.

[redmenace]

Originally posted by Roanoke


No offence mate but if it was God's will that created Israel, and I was Jewish, I'd be pretty pissed off at Him right now. I mean, a patch of desert surrounded by hostile countries. Not much really is it ?

Well, turn the tables. If you are God and time after time you have rescued these people, how would you feel. Point is that the Jews turned their back on God and in anger God allowed all of that to happen.
Deuteronomy 29:23
The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur--nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the Lord overthrew in fierce anger.

[vyper]

So we're admitting God can get pissed and throw a tantrum? Pretty low brow for an omnipotent being...

[karajorma]

Originally posted by redmenace
I never said the romans kicked them out for their own good.

Never said you did. Lets look at it in simple terms though.

Despite prophesy Jews believe that God hasn't sent them the Messiah yet. So the time when God will give them back the land of Israel hasn't come to pass yet. For all we know the Messiah is due in only another 4,000 years and this is just yet another one of those Jews control Israel/Jews don't control Israel deals.

So all this "God has given us back Israel and we must keep it forever" stuff is premature. Maybe he has. Maybe he wants to wait a few more years. Till the Messiah appears the Jews can't make any claims on the land cause maybe God does want them to get kicked out again.

[Flipside]

Did you know that during the Crusdades, when the Crusaders couldn't find any Muslims to slaughter, would perfectly happily go and attack Jewish settlements instead?

Like most religious things, its convenient for people, if they think no-ones looking and keeping score, it tends to just go straight out the window. That's why I hate religion, it's no less 2-faced than politics.

Edit : And if they believe no-one is looking, it doesn't say much for their strength of faith either.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Flipside
Did you know that during the Crusdades, when the Crusaders couldn't find any Muslims to slaughter, would perfectly happily go and attack Jewish settlements instead?

I still find it amusing that the Crusaders decided to attack Conastantinople (Then a christian city) on the way to the Crusades

[aldo_14]

It strikes me that the common justification tends to be - good things for the person = Gods will, bad things for the person = consequence of God giving free will.

[Roanoke]

Originally posted by redmenace
Well, turn the tables. If you are God and time after time you have rescued these people, how would you feel. Point is that the Jews turned their back on God and in anger God allowed all of that to happen.
Deuteronomy 29:23
The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur--nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the Lord overthrew in fierce anger.

That sounds like something an overbearing, jealous human might do. Doesn't exactly sound like a "higher" being.

Originally posted by karajorma


I still find it amusing that the Crusaders decided to attack Conastantinople (Then a christian city) on the way to the Crusades

probably just needed to warm up a bit Lol