[BlackDove]

Nobody deserves either Freedom or Security

[karajorma]

Originally posted by TrashMan
If he can so quickly juge people and deny them the right to freedom based on their perception on what's necessary for security, then yes....

Yeah cause old Ben is going to rise up out of his grave and personally deprive people of their freedoms.

Freedom is a right but it's a right that is earned. You earn it by making damn sure that no one takes it away from you. If you're stupid enough to actually give it away without complaint then you've nullified the right to blame anyone but yourself for its loss.

That's what he was on about.

Originally posted by TrashMan
Are you implying something?

I'm quite plainly stating that I have no intention of giving away my essential liberties in order to experience what it is like to lose my freedom. In the same way that I have no intention of cutting off my head in order to see what it would be like to be decapitated.

I have an imagination see. I don't need to physically experience something in order to know it's not good for me. Just because I've never lived in a totalitarian state doesn't mean I don't know why it's a bad idea or what can cause it.

[TrashMan]

What Bush is doing ain't taking aways freedoms...not in the least

Irritating maby...

[Martinus]

Originally posted by TrashMan
What Bush is doing ain't taking aways freedoms...not in the least

Irritating maby...

[color=66ff00]You would be the first of many of his victims.
[/color]

[karajorma]

Originally posted by TrashMan
What Bush is doing ain't taking aways freedoms...not in the least

Irritating maby...

Fine. Go live in Guantanamo and tell me about all the freedoms you have then.

[TrashMan]

Would you consinder installing hidden cammeras in all private areas (streets, parks, squares) as taking away freedoms?

You are a civilian. Tell me, what freedoms have you lost so far?

[mikhael]

streets, parks and squares are PUBLIC places. Not Private.

[mikhael]

No, I wouldn't consider installing cameras in all public places, like they have in England (or is it just London?). As far as I'm concerned such an act by any government agency--local, municipal, county/parrish, state OR federal--is an out-and-out violation of the Bill of Rights.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by TrashMan
You are a civilian. Tell me, what freedoms have you lost so far?

Presumption of innocence until proven guilty and the right to refuse to incriminate myself. The british government's RIP bill states that a policeman can ask to see any encrypted file on my PC if they wish to as part of an investigation. If I am unable or unwilling to give them access to the file I could go to jail for 2 years.

I'd say that both of those rights were pretty f**king important and I think it's outragous that the bill was

a) Passed in the first place
b) Ignored by almost everyone.

It's f**king ridiculous that forgetting your password can earn you two years in jail.

And that's just for us Brits. Americans have lost far more even if many of them haven't seen it yet.

[Mefustae]

Indeed Kara, but let's not forget your friend and mine, the Patriot Act...

[karajorma]

I'm not. I was simply too lazy to start on losses of freedom in the US. It would take far too long to write them all down.

[Roanoke]

Originally posted by karajorma


Presumption of innocence until proven guilty and the right to refuse to incriminate myself. The british government's RIP bill states that a policeman can ask to see any encrypted file on my PC if they wish to as part of an investigation. If I am unable or unwilling to give them access to the file I could go to jail for 2 years.

I'd say that both of those rights were pretty f**king important and I think it's outragous that the bill was

a) Passed in the first place
b) Ignored by almost everyone.

It's f**king ridiculous that forgetting your password can earn you two years in jail.

And that's just for us Brits. Americans have lost far more even if many of them haven't seen it yet.

how about the sneak 'n' peak bill where Agents can search your home and don't even have to tell they've been there!

[karajorma]

We have one of those in the UK? Cause if so I missed it.

[TrashMan]

Originally posted by mikhael
No, I wouldn't consider installing cameras in all public places, like they have in England (or is it just London?).
As far as I'm concerned such an act by any government agency--local, municipal, county/parrish, state OR federal--is an out-and-out violation of the Bill of Rights.

Ok this quote confuses me... You wouldn0't or would consider it a violation?

[Wild Fragaria]

Originally posted by TrashMan


So what? Even great people say rap from time to time.
And if his sentance means what people think it means, than THIS statement of his is stupid.

So does it mean that apply to you too?

Originally posted by TrashMan

Most of you have no idea what it truly means to loose ones freedom....

And you do?

[mikhael]

Originally posted by TrashMan

Ok this quote confuses me... You wouldn0't or would consider it a violation?

I would not consider intalling cameras everwhere. In other words, I believe that idea to be completely wrong.

If it were done, I would consider it completely wrong. It would violate the constitution.

Does that help you understand my position?

[TrashMan]

ERm...I wih I has the qute from Nation States here right now..

It's a PUBLIC space mind you..when you're out there PEOPLE CAN ACTUALLY SEE YOU! *shock*

Can you immagine what having cammeras in every stret cound do for the security?

Someone robs a banks/blows up a building and you can backtrace his steps to his house within minutes!

[StratComm]

It's not the legitimate reasons that are the problem, it's the potential for abuse.  Any such system can, and eventually will be, abused by those in power, and does not accomplish anything that actual police work could not do.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by TrashMan
ERm...I wih I has the qute from Nation States here right now..

It's a PUBLIC space mind you..when you're out there PEOPLE CAN ACTUALLY SEE YOU! *shock*

Can you immagine what having cammeras in every stret cound do for the security?

Someone robs a banks/blows up a building and you can backtrace his steps to his house within minutes!

People can see me, yes. Absolutely. And if they see me, well and good. No problem. But SURVEILLANCE is a different animal from being seen by Joe Suit on his way to the Latte House to get a cup of joe. See, the kinda of cameras you're talking about are a tool of the state. A tool of the police in particular. The police cannot put a watch on me without a reason, backed up by a court of law before they start (or at least, before the PATRIOT Act anyway). The camera system you talk about reverses the equation: I'm under watch all the time and have no way to opt out, even if I've done nothing wrong. Sorry, that's exactly the sort of thing the Bill of Rights is intended to protect me from.

In the final equation, I'll accept the risk that a terrorist/bankrobber/murderer/thief/hijacker might go free if it means that innocent people's rights will be protected. Err on the side of liberty, not the side of security.

[Kamikaze]

Many parts of the US constitution were put there so citizens could make sure their government served them and not the other way around. If universal government surveillance is allowed, even in public locations, this is just getting closer to a police state that can decide whatever it likes is "serving" the people. The government isn't supposed to be like a nosy parent, more like a sibling that we push all the work onto.