Author Topic: I'm not going to "get over it"  (Read 3249 times)

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Offline Kazan

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I'm not going to "get over it"
kalfireth: putting a certain person on ignore will help

/me does so
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Offline ShadowWolf_IH

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I'm not going to "get over it"
I dopn't know why he would put you on ignore Kal....:lol:
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Offline Bobboau

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I'm not going to "get over it"
our party lost... get over it

...realy, look at it, we are out numbered, there is a majority in this countery who just love God and country to the point of ignoring reality. if there was any merit to this, don't you think Kerry would have fought? running around screaming and laying accusations after, this isn't going to do anything other than play right into the republicans hands, they WANT you to spred this, they WANT you to keep bringing up the election fraud, they WANT fodder that they can spin into "the democrats are anti-american". STOP I know you don't like it, I know you can't stand backing down when you think you are right, but this isn't like most arguments, it doesn't matter if you are right or wrong, only if a majority of people beleive you, and this is tacticaly unsound.
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Offline ShadowWolf_IH

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I'm not going to "get over it"
Bob...well spoken...and for the record...I am NOT a George Bush fan.  However...i did find him to be the lesser of the two evils.  Kerry scared me into voting Bush.
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Offline aldo_14

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I'm not going to "get over it"
:rolleyes:

Interesting.  Why not vote 3rd party when the top 2 are ****e?  that's what i did......

Oh, and you can't ignore admins/moderators BTW.

 

Offline ShadowWolf_IH

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I'm not going to "get over it"
lol aldo...he meant..Ignore ShadowWolf_IH
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Offline aldo_14

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I'm not going to "get over it"
Quote
Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
lol aldo...he meant..Ignore ShadowWolf_IH


You're a moderator on the Fs subsection, aren't you?  Should you should be ignorable.

(EDIT; I left that sentence in because I have absolutely no idea what it means, or what I meant it to say (the opposite, I think).  The complete bizarreness of it is funny, though.....

Oh, and you can't be ignored.  Just checked)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2005, 12:51:29 pm by 181 »

 

Offline Kazan

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I'm not going to "get over it"
bobboau: i'm not going to back down off this subject ever - our election system is wide open to abuse by any party and it needs to be fixed

[edit]
aldo: nope it prevent me from ignoring him
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Offline redmenace

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I'm not going to "get over it"
Kazan, the Federal Gov't should and is obligated to enforce the constitution and the laws it passes. But to flat out require the states to conduct elections in a certain way defeats the purpose of a states rights and the powers they posses.
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Offline Fineus

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I'm not going to "get over it"
Ignoring people isn't something I'm about to do. We admins are here to regulate things if they get out of hand - and I'm not going to adopt an "out of sight, out of mind" policy to anyone here. If anyone is so much of an idiot that I want to ignore them, I'm going to ban them instead :)

 

Offline Bobboau

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I'm not going to "get over it"
if you have the most perfict, logicaly flawles argument, what good will it do you if you can't deliver it without alienateing the people who need to be convinced.
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Offline Kazan

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I'm not going to "get over it"
kal i was talking about me ignoring shadow

redmance: the states don't have a right to have ****ed up election systems.
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Offline aldo_14

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I'm not going to "get over it"
Quote
Originally posted by redmenace
Kazan, the Federal Gov't should and is obligated to enforce the constitution and the laws it passes. But to flat out require the states to conduct elections in a certain way defeats the purpose of a states rights and the powers they posses.


But to require they do it in a proveable fair way surely is allowed, if not required?

Oh, and Bobs right; you can have the best facts in the world, but they become useless in an arguement unless you can convey in a way that people a) will listen to you and b) will trust you to deliver facts.  If you go nuts on them, they'll be inclined to either ignore you, or assume you're cherrypicking evidence.  i.e. tis best to calm yer shams rather than get intae the argy bargy.

 

Offline Kazan

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I'm not going to "get over it"
aldo: i think citing an article of hard evidence and saying "no partisanness" should be enough for most people to take a look at something.

some people will always assume you're lying just because the evidence implicates their party in a particular case
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Offline redmenace

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I'm not going to "get over it"
At the center of the issue is whether the states are under direct authority of the Federal Gov't. In a couple of words yes and no. The federal Gov't is responcible for enforcing the constitution and to enact laws within its jurisdiction. If the federal gov't were to require the states to do anything, there would have to be a constitutional issue such as the 14th admendment, equal protection under the law like Bush vs. Gore(we'll assume for the sake of argument that it was unpartisan legal decision). But to ensure that every state uses a form of electronic voting isn't justifiable. Additionally, I should point out voting is carried out often by individual counties under the rules and regulations of the state. Each state then sends delegates to the electoral college. So frankly, is it the states responcibility to ensure their elections are fair. Now I don't support corruption, and so I think it is the voters responcibility to vote corrupt individuals out of office. And frankly I see real danger in breaking the seperation of powers between the states and the federal gov't.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2005, 01:52:24 pm by 887 »
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Offline aldo_14

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I'm not going to "get over it"
If you're using partisan language yourself, it casts doubt on your choice of sources, though.

A quote like
[q]
To deny it is to be myoptic at best - more likely it is fascist.

I'm placing you in the second catagory - you're like one of the poor excuses for people who simply follow The Party propaganda in 1984[/q]

Not only destroys any respect any 'opposition' has for your view, it means they are less likely to respect the sources you bring.  It also contradicts saying 'no partisanness', becuase the response is partisan.  Is there a similar refutory article around?  We can't tell, because we can no longer be sure you've looked for one.

You can see my point, I presume.  You don't convince people by insulting them, because you need their time and trust for them to consider what you're saying.

 

Offline aldo_14

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I'm not going to "get over it"
Quote
Originally posted by redmenace
At the center of the issue is whether the states are under direct authority of the Federal Gov't. In a couple of words yes and no. The federal Gov't is responcible for enforcing the constitution and to enact laws within its jurisdiction. If the federal gov't were to require the states to do anything, there would have to be a constitutional issue such as the 14th admendment, equal protection under the law like Bush vs. Gore(we'll assume for the sake of argument that it was unpartisan legal decision). But to ensure that every state uses a form of electronic voting isn't justifiable. Additionally, I should point out voting is carried out often by individual counties under the rules and regulations of the state. Each state then sends delegates to the electoral college. So frankly, is it the states responcibility to ensure their elections are fair. Now I don't support corruption, and so I think it is the voters responcibility to vote corrupt individuals out of office. And frankly I see real danger in breaking the seperation of powers between the states and the federal gov't.


Who ensures fairness, though?  The state has a vested interest - for many reasons - in appearing to be fair, so where is the oversight from?  Obviously the Supreme Court (albeit itself a highly political institution IMO) can rule on complaints, but what institutions are responsible for detecting fraud and making said complaints?

One other thing that struck me; if each state can decide differently how its electoral college delegates are 'allocated' (i.e. proportionate to vote, or simply all for the one majority vote candidate), doesn't that destroy equal/fair  representation for the individuals between states?

Oh, and what's all this pullaver over federal and state government?  I can understand a fear of dictatorship if central government has too much power (stemming, I guess, from the pre-rebellion time under British control), but doesn't it also indicate a complete lack of faith in central government?  I've heard the US system of governing as (paraphrase) 'balanced chaos', and to be honest I can see the reason why.

 

Offline Ace

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I'm not going to "get over it"
I'll argue that in all honesty the US doesn't know what it wants.

The same folks who argue against the federal government having too much power are the same ones who openly admit to wanting to elect "strong presidents"/fatherly figures to run the federal government. (as opposed to a candidate that may have personal flaws but is closer ideal wise to what they want, "a strong leader is needed for a strong nation!!111 I'd rather have that than a soccer mom/dad!")

Such individuals by their very nature will increase the federal government's power, (look at every "important" president in the 20th century) the exact opposite of what they claim they want.

Personally I don't even pretend to believe in states rights. Nice concept, but it failed during a little, utterly unimportant, thing called the CIVIL WAR. Since then the US, face it, is a federalist state.

Even prohibition was fortunately a success in its failure because the "state's rights" version of the law was the worst of both worlds. (organized crime in the prohibition states dealing with legitimate business in regular states) Good 'ol Volstead and his fundie allies allowed for such an extreme situation where the criminal violence of prohibition was revealed and the act was repealed.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2005, 03:04:45 pm by 72 »
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Offline Mongoose

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I'm not going to "get over it"
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
Oh, and what's all this pullaver over federal and state government?  I can understand a fear of dictatorship if central government has too much power (stemming, I guess, from the pre-rebellion time under British control), but doesn't it also indicate a complete lack of faith in central government?  I've heard the US system of governing as (paraphrase) 'balanced chaos', and to be honest I can see the reason why.

aldo, the debate over state vs. federal power has been going on since before the Constitution was written, and in many respects, it's been the most historically influential element of our political system.  After the American Revolution, colonial leaders worried about the possibility of a strong, centralized government taking control, since that was largely what they had fought against King George to escape from.  As a result, they drafted the Articles of Confederation, which established a very loose federation of independent states.  The states could go so far as to issue their own separate currencies, and the national congress had little to no power to enforce the laws it passed.  After a series of disputes between states, many of the most influential leaders realized that something had to be done.  Congress called for a national convention with the stated purpose of "revising" the Articles of Confederation to fix their problems.  After a short time, however, the Framers realized that an entirely new system of government had to be established, and the Constitution began to take shape.  Throughout the course of the convention, many of the most heavily debated issues involved the balance of power between state and federal governments.  These are also incorporated into parts of the Bill of Rights.  

Since then, the debate has continued; one of the most notable developments was, indeed, the Civil War, which was started as a challenge over a state's supposed right to secede from the Union; this war led the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment, which the Supreme Court has used to "incorporate" certain elements of the Bill of Rights and hold them against the states.  (The Bill of Rights was initially meant to apply against the federal government alone, since a strong federal government was what most of the Framers feared; most state constitutions already guaranteed most of the rights it laid out.)  Even today, those who call themselves "conservative" in the traditional sense favor a smaller federal government and higher state autonomy, while those who call themselves traditional "liberals" favor a larger and more pervasive federal government.  (This also ties into strict vs. loose constructionism, the debate over how much the Constitution should be "interpreted" to apply to current events.)  In a way, this debate has helped our country, since it's made people aware of the importance of balance between the different levels of government.  

As a footnote, I've always thought that the parliamentary system was rather strange; the idea that a government can just be dissolved or that elections can be held at any time seems to put too much power in the hands of those elected.  I also think that separating the duties of chief of state and head of the executive branch ignores the necessary interplay that these two functions of leadership need.  In my opinion, the knowledge that our elections, both federal and state, are regular, and that our elected officials have strictly set terms, is a good safeguard against one small group of individuals taking on too much power.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2005, 03:15:28 pm by 1965 »

 

Offline Shrike

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I'm not going to "get over it"
Quote
Originally posted by Ace
I'll argue that in all honesty the US doesn't know what it wants.

The same folks who argue against the federal government having too much power are the same ones who openly admit to wanting to elect "strong presidents"/fatherly figures to run the federal government. (as opposed to a candidate that may have personal flaws but is closer ideal wise to what they want, "a strong leader is needed for a strong nation!!111 I'd rather have that than a soccer mom/dad!")

Such individuals by their very nature will increase the federal government's power, (look at every "important" president in the 20th century) the exact opposite of what they claim they want.

Personally I don't even pretend to believe in states rights. Nice concept, but it failed during a little, utterly unimportant, thing called the CIVIL WAR. Since then the US, face it, is a federalist state.

Even prohibition was fortunately a success in its failure because the "state's rights" version of the law was the worst of both worlds. (organized crime in the prohibition states dealing with legitimate business in regular states) Good 'ol Volstead and his fundie allies allowed for such an extreme situation where the criminal violence of prohibition was revealed and the act was repealed.
I think the most important fact with 'states rights' is that the US that exists today is simply nothing like the US that was created by the founding fathers.  It is interconnected in ways that they simply could never have conceived of.  No longer are states totally (or nearly so) self-sufficient like they were a couple centuries ago, now they are just one part of the whole.  

There's nothing inherently wrong with the US system, but it was designed for a different time and a different kind of nation.  And you can only patch a building so many times before you have to tear it down and rebuild it - not necessarily violently, but I'm sure there's many a way the US' system could be reformed to match the times.
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