Author Topic: Global warming 'past the point of no return'  (Read 5278 times)

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Offline aldo_14

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Global warming 'past the point of no return'
Quote
Originally posted by WeatherOp
Sits back and waits until someone blames Kat on Global Warming.:p


It's been done already; see my earlier post with all the links.  It's been suggested that the (recorded) increase in sea temperatures over the past 35 years has intensified severe weather activity (hurricanes, tropical storms, typhoons). http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4249138.stm

 

Offline Grey Wolf

Global warming 'past the point of no return'
I blame Ghostavo for global warming.
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Offline Ghostavo

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Offline Mefustae

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Global warming 'past the point of no return'
Greeeeeaaaat, you Northern Hemisphere dullards have screwed it up for all of us down here in the Southern Hemisphere, not to mention yourselves in the process, I hope you're right bloody happy with yourselves for that one...! Here we are, minding our own business, and BAM! You lads up there trigger what might very well end almost all life on the Planet Permian-style...:hopping: Just further evidence that the Southern Hemisphere is the better hemisphere...!

[tokenBushBashing]Oh, and $20 says Bush blames this on Terrorism[/tokenBushBashing]
« Last Edit: September 17, 2005, 08:52:29 pm by 2686 »

 

Offline Grey Wolf

Global warming 'past the point of no return'
Quote
Originally posted by Ghostavo
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Offline Mongoose

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Global warming 'past the point of no return'
Just last week, my thermodynamics professor talked at length about the facts of global climate change.  Let me see what I can recall, so I can try to cut through some of the politics and bull that always surrounds this topic:

-Yes, the global climate has experienced change over the last several decades.  If you check out the data, you can actually start to trace this to around 1850, which coincides with the start of the Industrial Revolution. (It may seem like a direct correlation, and I'll agree that it seems likely, but if you're calling yourself a scientist, you'd better have the whole picture before you start calling things "facts.") The phenomenon's not anything new.

-What I found interesting is that it is true that humankind's output of carbon dioxide represents a small fraction of the total global carbon dioxide cycle.  The largest proponent of the cycle is the emission/re-absorption of CO2 from the world's oceans, followed by the cycle between photosynthesis and organism respiration.  Also interesting is the fact that both the oceanic and plant cycles collectively lead to a negative flow of CO2 from the atmosphere.  While humanity's input is small, it does put the net input of CO2 into the positive direction.  We don't know yet whether this output will level out at some point in the future or is in a "runaway" effect.  Another possible implication is that, were human activity to be curtailed somewhat, the planet would be able to remain at its current atmospheric levels without any problems.

-Yes, it's true that sea levels have risen.  However, the media often grossly exaggerates this problem.  Even the worst-case scenarios put the increase at about a meter over the next 50 years, which is a seemingly manageable value.

-While the increased frequency of hurricanes this year would make most people immediately think of a correlation, we just don't have enough data yet for it to be proven.  We're only talking about an increased pattern over several years; that's far from enough time to be talking about long-term patterns.

-Yes, the Arctic ice is shrinking (as my professor put it, this poses problems for the polar bears, at least :p).  However, the Antarctic ice hasn't exhibited any significant reductions.  Take that as you will.

-Currently, global warming is seen as a purely negative effect.  However, there are areas in which it could actually prove to be beneficial.  Treating it at the same level as an asteroid strike is pure media sensationalism.  (My professor's reaction to a picture he showed in which a glacier had receded to leave a lake is that "it's much nicer-looking now than it was." :p)

-Even if humanity stopped absolutely all CO2 output tomorrow, temperatures would continue to rise due to the levels that are already in the atmosphere.  There's no "magic switch" that we can simply switch off, no matter what some people may say.

-One interesting thing to consider would be the use of biomass fuels such as ethanol.  By growing plants for conversion into fuel and then its subsequent combustion, you could potentially have a self-sustaining cycle with no net release of CO2.  Something to think about.

-Most importantly of all the points I've made, I want to reinforce that far too many people are calling for changes to be made without explaining exactly how they are going to be made.  Let me put it bluntly:  it is economically impossible (not infeasible, impossible) to eliminate fossil fuels as a source of energy.  Go ahead, try doing it; then watch the global economy collapse to hell.  I don't have any easy answers as to what should be done; in fact, there aren't any.  However, blaming policies of the past few years is just a waste of air.

To tell you the truth, I generally hate fearmongering headlines like the title of this thread.  It doesn't do anybody every good to yell, "We're all gonna die!" It's not going to solve anything.  Rather than wasting their breath, perhaps the scientists mentioned in the article should start working on some practical steps that should be taken to start to deal with the issue, and even above that, to determine beyond a shadow of a doubt exactly what impact human activity is having on global climate change.  That's what we truly need, not Greenpeace propaganda.

 

Offline WeatherOp

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Global warming 'past the point of no return'
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14


It's been done already; see my earlier post with all the links.  It's been suggested that the (recorded) increase in sea temperatures over the past 35 years has intensified severe weather activity (hurricanes, tropical storms, typhoons). http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4249138.stm


And over the past 40 years we have also jumped into the golden age of Meteorology, whitch would show an increase in stronger hurricanes, as tornados has increased from a few hundred a year in the 60s and 70s to a couple of thousand a year now.Is that global warming, no, better radar and reporting.As with hurricanes we now have Hurricane Hunters, Radar, supercomputers, bouys of the coast, better wind speed measuring equipment, and perhaps the most important of them all, advanced satelites.

And if you want to blame Kat on Global Warming, you need to look into the past, Kat. was not the strongest Hurricane ever recorded by a long shot, and you also have to think, what if we had all the advanced things in the past? It took the NHC 10 years to raise Andrew to a Cat.5 at landfall, and if thats the case, what would they have found in monster storms like Gilbert, or Camille or The Labor Day Hurricane of 1935.

I'm not saying that it's not global warming helping these monster storms form, and I'm not wanting to get in a debate about it. However strong storms has acurred in the past and they will happen again.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2005, 10:41:26 pm by 2303 »
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Offline IceFire

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Global warming 'past the point of no return'
Quote
Originally posted by Mongoose
-Most importantly of all the points I've made, I want to reinforce that far too many people are calling for changes to be made without explaining exactly how they are going to be made.  Let me put it bluntly:  it is economically impossible (not infeasible, impossible) to eliminate fossil fuels as a source of energy.  Go ahead, try doing it; then watch the global economy collapse to hell.  I don't have any easy answers as to what should be done; in fact, there aren't any.  However, blaming policies of the past few years is just a waste of air.


Good post for sure!

I think this one point that I've quoted here is most relevant.  I think most here accept that fossil fuels aren't going to disappear.  I think the problem is that we continue to use them in even greater amounts without thinking of alternatives that can be introduced slowly.

Change the economy over 20 or 30 years to a new emphasis.
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Offline Mefustae

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Global warming 'past the point of no return'
Quote
Originally posted by Mongoose
-Most importantly of all the points I've made, I want to reinforce that far too many people are calling for changes to be made without explaining exactly how they are going to be made.  Let me put it bluntly:  it is economically impossible (not infeasible, impossible) to eliminate fossil fuels as a source of energy.  Go ahead, try doing it; then watch the global economy collapse to hell.  I don't have any easy answers as to what should be done; in fact, there aren't any.  However, blaming policies of the past few years is just a waste of air.
How about the US - one of the largest contributers of Greenhouse Pollution per capita in the world - gets off its high horse and signs in with the Kyoto Protocol. I'm not going to delude myself, the Protocol is flawed, but it's a start. The US signing into the Protocol would increase its credibility, and thus other countries holding out may give in a sign it. Yes, I agree that we're (humanity) one of the smaller contributers of Greenhouse Pollution on this planet, but we are contributing! Honestly, i'm not calling for a major reform, just for the US to get its arse in gear and sign the ****ing protocol...! We did it with the Montreal Protocol and those darn CFC's, and we can do it with this...! But alas, as the current US administration has shown, pulling out of beneficial Treaties & Protocols seems to be all the rage - Anti Ballistic Missile Treaty anyone...?

Now, deny it if you will, but seriously, throwing as much CO2 into the Atmosphere are we are now cannot be good for the Planet, whichever way you look at it. I don't really care if you guys want to nitpick over whether or not it's causing Climate change, whether or not it's going to cause major changes to the environment, I don't really care. But what we should at least agree on is that Global Warming is a clear and present danger to our species, and if not us, then the other species on the planet...!
« Last Edit: September 17, 2005, 11:25:40 pm by 2686 »

 

Offline Bobboau

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Global warming 'past the point of no return'
Kyoto wouldn't do a damned thing about the problem, unless you think that China not being in a more advantagous position than it currently is, is 'the problem'. asking the US to unfairly cripple itself is only good for one thing, makeing sure you have a political weapon to use against them.
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Offline Mefustae

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Global warming 'past the point of no return'
Hey, Kyoto calls for a gradual decrease in CO2 emmissions, not a complete upheaval of the entire economy. While i'll admit that there are situations where it becomes unfeasable - ie. Australia - the US is "one of the most powerful nations on the planet economically", i'm sure they could do much to decrease their emmissions without crippling themselves...and if they do cripple themselves in the process, I won't be complaining :p [KIDDING!]...

 

Offline Bobboau

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Global warming 'past the point of no return'
yeah, a treaty that calls for reductions in emmissions, yeah, who wouldn't go for that, everyone has to cut there emmissions, yeah, well exept for countries that are 'developing' yeah, there developing so that means there to primitive to bother with, how much problem are they going to cause anyway, they couldn't do a thing anyway. yeah, let's just make the developed countries cut back, there the greedy ones causing the problems, and there most of the world developing nations are just little chuncks, right?



oh, yeah, the entier fukcing world is developing exept the US, parts of europe and austrailia, oh, yeah. thats fukcing fair.
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Offline Grey Wolf

Global warming 'past the point of no return'
Quote
Originally posted by Mongoose
-Yes, it's true that sea levels have risen.  However, the media often grossly exaggerates this problem.  Even the worst-case scenarios put the increase at about a meter over the next 50 years, which is a seemingly manageable value.
"Seemingly" is the operative word. Unless, of course, you're willing to argue with Harvard and the Smithsonian? http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/space_geodesy/SEALEVEL/
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline Prophet

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Global warming 'past the point of no return'
It seems that this theory hasn't been presented here yet...

If the ice caps melt, that means more water. That also means more water in the athmosphere. Right? That means more clouds. Yes? Hence, the result would be the opposite, golbal cooling. Because of sun not getting trought the extensive cloud cover...

It's a fairly new theory. I read it from some science article a year or two ago... Cant really remember where and when, I read so many of them.

However, the theory makes sense. Doesn't it?
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Offline Mefustae

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Global warming 'past the point of no return'
Are you sure it was an article, Prophet? ...Are you sure it wasn't...nothing...?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2005, 01:48:22 am by 2686 »

 

Offline Ace

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Global warming 'past the point of no return'
Increased water vapor can also lead to more of a greenhouse effect due to water being a greenhouse gas.

However, the last ice age occured when the  temperature rised, began to melt the ice caps, and a variety of factors (sudden sea level shift, abledo change, etc.) all led to rapid cooling.

Regardless, this isn't a good thing that's happening.
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Offline Mongoose

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Global warming 'past the point of no return'
Quote
Originally posted by Mefustae
Are you sure it was an article, Prophet? ...Are you sure it wasn't...nothing...?

I'll give you props for the usage of that line. :lol: However, the US isn't going to be the country you'll have to worry about in the next 20-30 years.  It'll be China and India.  Both of those countries have rapidly growing economies.  With growing economies comes growing per capita wealth; with growing per capita wealth comes increased automobile usage; with increased automobile usage comes much more CO2 emission.  From the one graph my professor showed us, the US and Europe's increase in automobile purchases will climb very gradually over the next 20 years, while those in India/China will absolutely skyrocket.  It's not like we can just tell them to stop buying cars when we all use them so much ourselves and have for so long.

Grey Wolf, no one's saying that rising sea levels are a good thing.  But many of the problems in that article can be addressed, providing we do it right.  Levees can be raised; beaches can be built up (just take some sand from Wildwood, NJ; they have about a mile of it from the boardwalk to the ocean :p); houses can be moved back.  I'm not saying it will be easy, but it can be done.  Considering the fact that my professor is from the Netherlands, I'm pretty sure that he knows at least a little bit about dealing with land below sea level. :p

Bobboau hit the nail on the head, as I mentioned above.  The Kyoto Protocol is all well and good, but when it comes down to it, it's nothing more than a voluntary document that's working toward relatively minor reductions in greenhouse emissions.  In doing so, it completely ignores the countries that have the most rapidly incresing emissions.  Also, last time I checked, it doesn't say much about exactly how the respective nations' economies are going to handle things.  Please correct me if I'm wrong on this point.  I'm all for idealism, but global warming requires a huge dose of practicality if anything's ever going to be done about it; that was the main point I had hoped to make above.  IceFire's got the right idea; any change that takes place will have to happen slowly and will have to start with reforms to the economy, not to oil production.  Only after we're set up for it, and after alternative technologies start to come into fruition (fuel cells are far too much of a pipe dream at this point), can we start to lessen our dependence on petroleum.

 

Offline Mefustae

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Global warming 'past the point of no return'
So Bobboau, you're saying that, because Developing Countries don't have to reduce their emmissions, that for some reason makes everyone else reducing their emmissions...bad...?

Funnily enough, that's pretty much the exact same response given by George W. Bush when queried about signing the Protocol; "The world's second-largest emitter of greenhouse gases is China. Yet, China was entirely exempted from the requirements of the Kyoto Protocol. This is a challenge that requires a 100 percent effort; ours, and the rest of the world's. America's unwillingness to embrace a flawed treaty should not be read by our friends and allies as any abdication of responsibility. To the contrary, my administration is committed to a leadership role on the issue of climate change. Our approach must be consistent with the long-term goal of stabilizing greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere."

Basically, he's saying; '...because China isn't gonna be cuttin' them emmissions, we won't either...we still support that dang ol' treaty in spirit, but we're just gonna ignore it...'

It's also interesting to note how much the US contributes;

You can see that almost every other country/continent curbed their emmissions by 2000, and yet the US [and Canada] continue to rise steadily, easily the largest contributers in the World. If Eastern Europe & Russia, recovering from the shackles of the USSR, can curb their output so damn much, why can't the US...? I don't buy for a second that the US economy would be severely destroyed in the process of conforming to the Protocol, but adaptations will have to be made, which may affect it adversely. But I still fail to see why the most powerful nation economically, and also the biggest contributer, in the world chooses to ignore this 'flawed' protocol...!

Regarding developing nations, I do believe that them being exempt from the Treaty is a point of interest - the exemption of China first and foremost - but using that as an excuse not to sign the Protocol is just plain silly. Given that the Protocol is indeed flawed, it can be changed over time to include rapidly industrialising nations like China. I'm not saying rip up your economy to do it, i'm just saying make an effort for the betterance of Humanity...!
« Last Edit: September 18, 2005, 02:07:15 am by 2686 »

 

Offline Bobboau

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Global warming 'past the point of no return'
we ignore it because it is flawed, because it basicly targets us and only us.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2005, 02:35:01 am by 57 »
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Offline Mefustae

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Global warming 'past the point of no return'
Well obviously, you guys are the biggest bloody contributers to Global Warming on the Planet...! Who the hell else are we going to target...? The Mexicans...? :p