[Shrike]

Originally posted by karajorma
1) If it's not due to mankinds influence why is the temperature rising? Global temperature change doesn't occur simply because the planet feels like moving closer to the sun. So if you're saying that the planet is coming out of an ice age I ask you why? What's changed?  

Climates fluctuate naturally.  There has been a minimum of nine warming-cooling cycles in the last couple million years, we happen to be in the middle of one such.  Don't be fooled.  The Ice Age is not over and we are in a period of short-term (in geologic terms) climatic shifts.



As you can see, it's a cycle.  What's scary is that our actions may be tipping things more quickly into an ice age . . . . or keeping us out of one for longer.  And we just don't know.

But it's a complete and utter mistake to say that we've came out of an ice age and that global temperatures are at all stable over centuries and millenia of time.  They've actually been more stable now than they were in previous intraglacials, which is possibly all that allowed us to form an advanced civilization.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Mongoose
To many of you, why do you automatically assume that, just because the US hasn't signed Kyoto, we're not taking other steps to start to reduce CO2 emissions?  

It's hard to believe that you're doing anything about it when your own president was claiming as recently as last year that there was no evidence that global warming is due to human activity.

Originally posted by Mongoose
hings are being done; we Americans aren't doing anything as ridiculous as pretending that climate change isn't an important issue.  This is where I think that some of you are showing at least some level of bias; you're making blanket statements about all Americans that are completely ignoring the facts.

I'm making blanket statements that your government is completely ignoring the facts. And they are. No bias. Clinton was just as big a dick about it as either Bush.

The problem is that not enough is being done. The little dribs and drabs you mention just isn't good enough. More is needed.

Originally posted by Shrike
Climates fluctuate naturally.

Every time I think I'm labouring my points too much I get a response like this that shows I'm not doing it enough!

Of course climates fluctuate. Now tell me why they fluctuate. In other words what is the direct cause of this rise in temperature. For the people who claim that it's not mankinds fault tell me what is to blame.
 When you talk about the permian extinction you can point at the Siberian Traps or methane hydrate.

What's to blame here? Cause something must have changed. And the only excuse I've ever heard from the anti-global warming lobby is to shrug their shoulders and say I don't know.

[TrashMan]

Originally posted by Bobboau
we may be the worlds highest per capita poluters, but were also the worlds highest per capita producers, we aren't any more waistfull than anyone else, we just do a lot more.

Yeah ..trash..

An US citizen spends more energy and water and produces more garbage then any other in the world as I recall..

But that's not the point - you tell me exactly how is trying to stop pollution crippling US economy? Oh .. a few millions companies must invest in filters for their factories or modernization processes? Big loss - better spend them there then for the bosses Jacht or private jet...

[DeepSpace9er]

This is bordering on absudity. The US needs to sign into Kyoto NOW!! Bush needs to sign an executive order turning over the powers of the government to the UN so that the US will stop polluting up the world!!

Bush is such a wacked out Christian nut that he wants the environment to be destroyed so that Western Civilization will fall apart because thats what his religion says.

I never saw the truth until now.. you guys are all right! There is global warming and mankind is causing it. So we should all immediately commit hara-kiri and let evolution continute from the broken thing its become!

Back to Reality....

People should protect the environment and im not one who looks out over LA,  breaths in deeply and says "ahhhhh progress!" 50 years ago companies couldnt care less about polutants and chemicals, now our laws have gone to the other extreme, cant build a highway because of "wetlands" There has to be a balance somewhere, and we shouldnt have to sacrifice entirely our way of life to get there. Not related to global warming but still environmentally related.

Another thing, why isnt global warming called "world warming" or something else... why global if it only effects the ice caps apparently?

[Grey Wolf]

It affects everything, the effect is most profound at the poles and the equator.

[vyper]

[q]why global if it only effects the ice caps apparently?[/q]

Venus. Go look. Consider. Restate idea.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
The US needs to sign into Kyoto NOW!! Bush needs to sign an executive order turning over the powers of the government to the UN so that the US will stop polluting up the world!!
 

The US needs to stop polluting, as does everyone else. Whether they do that by enacting local laws, signing on to a UN program or by doing some sort of elaborate tap-dance is really irrelevant. They could call in the shaman for all I care, as long as it works.

Like I said: even if you accept all the arguements of the critics, there is no reason to throw caution to the wind. Long term consequences have to be considered above short term consequences, and global consequences have to be considered above national consequences. Even if you are a skeptic, it's far better to be safe than to wait until it's too late and until no sacrifice, no matter how large, will save the situation.

[DeepSpace9er]

I guess i should  point out that i was being extremely sarcastic.

[Styxx]

What Shrike said. And since he didn't say this yet: Earth first! We'll stripmine the other planets later...



On that note, global warming is so nineties. The current bogeyman is terrorism. You guys are so terribly passé.

[Shrike]

Originally posted by karajorma
Every time I think I'm labouring my points too much I get a response like this that shows I'm not doing it enough!

Of course climates fluctuate. Now tell me why they fluctuate. In other words what is the direct cause of this rise in temperature. For the people who claim that it's not mankinds fault tell me what is to blame.
 When you talk about the permian extinction you can point at the Siberian Traps or methane hydrate.

What's to blame here? Cause something must have changed. And the only excuse I've ever heard from the anti-global warming lobby is to shrug their shoulders and say I don't know.

Milankovich cycles is a prime contender.  Possibly long-term cooling/dimming cycles in the Sun.  Nobody really knows for certain.  But ultimately it's just a red herring.  The global climate has been changing over time, repeatedly, and without any human intervention.

Our contribution to this is disturbing a pre-existing cycle.  To reiterate:  We don't have a clue what our actions are really doing over the long term.  But there's something already happening and we're just mucking with it.

Personally I'm all for emission reduction, via Kyoto or not.  Actually I dislike some of Kyoto's points, such as selling emission credits which I think is counterproductive.

In other news, let the stripmining of the solar system begin!  First planet to resource exhaustion wiiiiiiiins!

[Kazan]

Bobboau i cannot believe you - you've boughten into the bull**** oh-so-completely.

Signing onto Kyoto would not hurt our economy - it would hurt certain excessively wealthy polluting groups of *******s whom own a bunch of senators and have "pocket 'scientist'" to spew bull**** to confuse the public all day long.

Yes the planet's temperature fluctuates on it's own - so let's not contribute ti the instability by excess polution and deforestation

[IceFire]

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
This is bordering on absudity. The US needs to sign into Kyoto NOW!! Bush needs to sign an executive order turning over the powers of the government to the UN so that the US will stop polluting up the world!!

Bush is such a wacked out Christian nut that he wants the environment to be destroyed so that Western Civilization will fall apart because thats what his religion says.

I never saw the truth until now.. you guys are all right! There is global warming and mankind is causing it. So we should all immediately commit hara-kiri and let evolution continute from the broken thing its become!

Back to Reality....

People should protect the environment and im not one who looks out over LA,  breaths in deeply and says "ahhhhh progress!" 50 years ago companies couldnt care less about polutants and chemicals, now our laws have gone to the other extreme, cant build a highway because of "wetlands" There has to be a balance somewhere, and we shouldnt have to sacrifice entirely our way of life to get there. Not related to global warming but still environmentally related.

Another thing, why isnt global warming called "world warming" or something else... why global if it only effects the ice caps apparently?

1) I have to ask why yet another highway needs to be built over wetlands.  Considerations have to be made for both environmental and economic impact...sometimes the benefit can be for both.
2) U.S. laws on environmental protection are not nearly as strong as they are in other western nations.
3) The melting of the icecaps has the possibility of huge impacts felt globally.  From previous discussions, I remember you displaying several times that you hadn't quite wrapped around the concept of the world as a system.  An impact in one corner of the world (the icecaps as you have mentioned) affects the entire planet.  There is a balance and a system...the impacts are felt globally.  Thus global warming as the average temperature is rising (locally it can be plus or minus 3-4 degrees on average).

Again, the question is not about if there is a warming trend.  The question is how much we're going to tip the scales.  The ecosystem on Earth has not been static for its entire history...at one point the planet was a frozen iceball.  In another, it was inhospitable and multitudes of species died.   mass extinctions have happened several times over.

The difference now is that we're here and we're quite unlike anything else.

Now consider a hypothetical situation.  Global warming leads to a pattern change in the U.S. Midwest.  Crop yeilds dimminish and continental food supplies are diminished...food becomes more expensive and people begin to be more desperate as once plentiful food supplies become increasingly hard to find.   Not good news...could be a bit of a problem if it were to happen.  We will have to adapt one way or another....but whats really bad is if we were the determining factor that tipped the scales and put the planet over the top.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
Another thing, why isnt global warming called "world warming" or something else... why global if it only effects the ice caps apparently?

Asked and Answered  previously.

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
Another thing why isnt global warming called Worldwide Warming?

Originally posted by karajorma
That's a rather silly question. Why the hell should they have called it that. Besides worldwide warming implies (to me at least) that everywhere in the world will get warmer. As I've already stated that's not true. Britain for instance will get colder (at least in winter). Global Warming on the other hand indicates that the Earth as a whole will get warmer which is exactly what will happen.

Only this time you're getting even more silly with it. You're the only one saying that global warming only affects the ice caps. I've never heard anyone from either the pro or anti camps say anything so preposterous before.

[Kosh]

Many people here also don't seem to understand the fact that global warming also DOES **** up the current system real bad. When those grind to a halt, then the rainfall patterns will change.


And yes, Bush is a whacked out Christian. He attacked a country 3 years ago because he thought God wanted him too. That's all the proof his is whacked out most people will need.

[Mefustae]

*Cocks rifle* Well, God told me to do something too, it's time to pay Bush a visit...*Slams door* :devil:








...To the CIA/NSA/FBI lads who picked up on this post through your monitoring system, one word for you...KIDDING...!

[Darkage]

Nuke the planet, it's more fun and has prety explosions that you can seen/experience for a few seconds:D

/runs

[Mongoose]

Originally posted by Kosh
And aye, Bush be a whacked out Christian. He attacked a country 3 years ago on account o' he thought God wanted him too. That's all th'proof his be whacked out most people will need.

That gets a royal dose of from me...

[Kosh]

You can hide from th'truth all ye want, but that doesn't change th'fact that Bush be insane.




EDIT: With the pirate talk on that actually does sound kind of cool.

[Mongoose]

I'm not hidin' from th'truth; I just think ye're takin' yer disapproval o' him t'a ridiculous level.  I can understand that ye might think that he's a bad president; even though I'm usually in agreement with his policies, thar are many issues where I think he should have done things differently.  However, resortin' t'questionin' his sanity be pretty childish IMO.

Edit:  I vote we keep the pirate speak, at least for the political threads.  It's hard to get annoyed at someone when everything looks like this

[aldo_14]

I believe 'whacked out Christian' is a humerous exaggeration.   There's no evidence Bush is actually Christian, what with the lack of compassion for the poor or charity.  Plus that whole thing with Rumsfeld breaks the 'graven images' commandment.