Author Topic: Best Politics Test 3v4r!  (Read 5770 times)

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Offline Flipside

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Quote
Originally posted by Marauder


Not nerdy but not hip? :rolleyes:


Yeah, I thought 'Hip' went out of date years ago.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan


Don't put meaning in my words that isn't there. Unlike torturing people and beating them or scaring the living hell out of them, CCTV is something very debatable even among normal people. that's far from being against privacy..


As for the profiling thread you completely (again) missed my point. My poin was that if you are looking for Al-Quaida terrorists the best place to look for them is among those private religious teachers (as they are not that dumb to spread their message in large public moscs)
Wether you like it or no all Al-Quaida are muslim.. so it only makes sense to look there. but that doesn't men to bother all of them either...


Don't you understand that it's a question of interpretation?

  I'm not insane, (AFAIK) you're not insane, and yet we totally disagree on whether this is right, but yet both have a clearly defined sense of what we think is right and wrong.

I think CCTV violates privacy, and profiling violates the right to equal treatment before the law.  That's part of my belief in what is wrong, same as you believe they are right because you don't believe that they cause that harm, whereas I do.

You have to understand is that a 'well developed sense of right and wrong' is not a positive or negative attribute (hence why it is as applicable to Stalin as it is to Ghandi).  It's what you believe is right, and what you believe is wrong that matters.

That's my point here; knowing what you believe is right doesn't make totalitarianism a good thing.  That's not a personal judgement aimed at you, but a point of note towards the category.

 

Offline TrashMan

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I can understand where you're going with the CCTV - it's really debatable and not even I am sure it should be used (nedless to say if I were in power I would never do things I'm not 100% sure about..so CCTV is out for now), but what the hell are you talking about racial profiling???
Didn't you read the end of my last post?
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Offline Bobboau

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evedence should be weighed on it's own, if it was aquiered by less than perfict means then that should not effect it's presentability. if you start spying on mosks and you find a guy planning on gassing a subway, then you should arrest him, if the spying was illigal than the people who were involved in the spying should be punished as well, but the criminal should not be rewarded.

(note: this obviusly does not extend to fabricateing evidence, so don't bring that up)
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Offline TrashMan

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Not mosks.. they are not that dumb

As I recall in the documentary I saw the cell leaders are usually private religious tutors - they teach religion in small houses or visit their pupils regulary. What better way to recruit?
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

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Offline Grey Wolf

Mosques.

As for profiling, there have been plenty of terrorist attacks that did not include any link to Islam or al-Queda. The Unabomber, the Olympic Bombings in 1996, and the sarin in the subway in Japan.

Nothing, NOTHING, can justify racial profiling.
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline mikhael

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Damn, I can't believe I forgot about Aum Shin-Rikyu. I was just two stops past where they set up the gas, on my way back from Akihabara.

You forgot the Oklahoma City bombing, Grey Wolf, and any number of abortion clinic and church burnings in that list.
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Offline Grey Wolf

I just needed a short list. Hell, if I felt like going back any amount of time, I could point out the Jewish terrorism against the British.
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline Janos

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Ireland/NI/Britain. Basque/Spain/France. Italy.
lol wtf

 

Offline Sandwich

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Terrorism is like spam. Preventive measures that are appropriate for one person/place may not be the most appripriate for another.

In some cases, racial profiling in combination with behavioral profiling is both appropriate and effective. When the attacks start coming in different forms, the countermeasures will be adjusted accordingly.

There's nothing revolutionary with this methodology; I don't see what the big fuss is.

And yes, *bump*.
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline aldo_14

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Racial profiling is discriminating against one group, whilst putting on the blinkers versus another.  I think it was most recently seen by the shoebomber thing.... I mean, in most normal population only a miniscule percentage of people are threats.  

Even within a restricted  group you have a lot of people being treated differently (heightened suspicion), who are completely innocent.  If you tighten the profile, then you leave huge gaps - and that's assuming you have a decent set of information to profile upon, which IMO there isn't in 99.9% of cases.

Worse still, if you're applying this discrimination, then you're breeding the ideal conditions for (reactionary) extremism.

I guess Israel is an exceptional case (compared to, say, the UK, Germany, etc) due to the political and geographic situation, but at the same time I'd wager it's stil only a tiny amount of people who are 'guilty', and a massive amount who are being led to resentment through the likes of roadblocks and soforth.  Whether that situation has gone to far to be retrievable in the Israel/Palestine case, I don't know, but I do know that the peace process in NI did more to destroy the IRA than the British Army ever did.  Likewise how the increasing devolution of the Basque region has turned the population against ETA (compared to, say,  Francos time).

This is a good article, incidentally.

I'd also note http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/pdf-files/Soc_Psych_of_Terrorism.pdf;
[q]In profiling the terrorist, some generalizations can be made on the basis on this examination of the literature on the psychology and sociology of terrorismpublished over the past three decades. One finding is that, unfortunately for profiling purposes, there does not appear to be a single terrorist personality. This seems to be the consensus among terrorism psychologists as well as political scientists and sociologists. The personalities of terrorists may be as diverse as the personalities of people in any lawful profession. There do not appear to be any visibly detectable personality traits that would allow authorities to identify a terrorist.
...
In short, a terrorist will look, dress, and behave like a normal person, such as a university student, until he or she executes the assigned mission. Therefore, considering that this physical and behavioral description of the terrorist could describe almost any normal young person, terrorist profiling based on personality, physical, or sociological traits would not appear to be particularly useful.
...
International terrorists generally appear to be predominately either leftist or Islamic. A profiling system could possibly narrow the statistical probability that an unknown individual boarding an airliner might be a terrorist if it could be accurately determined that most terrorists are of a certain race, culture, religion, or nationality. In the absence of statistical data, however, it cannot be determined here whether members of any particular race, religion, or nationality are responsible for most acts of international terrorism.
[/q]

NB: below that it makes a case for small case, very specific profiling;  
[q]Until those figures become available, smaller-scale terrorist group profiles might be more useful. For example, a case could be made that U.S. Customs personnel should give extra scrutiny to the passports of young foreigners claiming to be “students” and meeting the following general description: physically fit males in their early twenties of Egyptian, Jordanian, Yemeni, Iraqi, Algerian, Syrian, or Sudanese nationality, or Arabs bearing valid British passports, in that order. These characteristics generally describe the core membership of Osama bin Laden’s Arab “Afghans” (see Glossary), also known as the Armed Islamic Movement (AIM), who are being trained to attack the United States with WMD.[/q]

you'll note this profile wouldn't have caught the 9/11 hijackers; specifcially, 5 used the 'visa express' program that allowed rapid entry of Saudi citizens into the US without an Id check (a programme introduced because of tightened id checks due to a terror alert!).  (a few were also older than the 'young' profile, depending upon its definition here).  One had lived in the US since 1991 (Hanji Hanjour).

(incidentally, a few of the hijackers apparently asked for a state id card on August 2 2001.....)

Of the non Saudis; the Lebanese, Ziad Jarrah was from a secular family and attended a Catholic school.  In 99 he became more religious, and then more secular once more in 2000 (shaving his bear, etc; presumably to fit in the US better). Fayez Rashid Ahmed Hassan al Qadi Banihammad (reportedly not Saudi, although I can't seem to find his age or nationality listed) entered also under Visa Express; without specifying a job, area of residence and stating he wouldn't be living in the country. Marwan al-Shehhi; UAE (so not on this suggested list, although I don't know how he got a visa anyways), a devout and ultimately extremist muslim but changed his appearance to be more secular.

Of course, you could expand that suggested profile to include these people, but then you'd also be massively increasing a workload on checking innocent people.  On the other hand, if they'd done proper id and history checks, they'd likely have picked up some.

(just on Visa Express  -because I hadn't heard of this before - apparently it was introduced in May 2001 at a time when the threat alert was 'off the charts' and it had been identified most al-Queda members were Saudi.  It allowed Saudis to be granted a visa without having to apply in person or provide a photograph, at a travel agency.  Apparently the reporter that broke this story was later arrested by the State Department)

  

Offline Sandwich

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I've no real disagreement with anything you just posted, Aldo, merely an observation.

When I walk up to a bus stop in downtown these days, about 75% of the time, the armed guard there will come up to me and ask how I'm doing. Now, if you remember from pictures, I don't look anything like a descendant of Ishmael. I have very white skin, light brown hair, etc. Also, I'm pretty tall (6'4" or so), which isn't as common among the Arab peoples as it is among westerners.

Nevertheless, more often than not, I am "confronted" by the security people. All they are looking for is to see my reaction; am I under pressure, nervous, etc? Originally I thought they wanted to hear my voice (checking my accent), but I've discovered that they're satisfied with a friendly nod and smile. Why? Behavioral profiling.

Now, had I been of Arab descent or appearance, I do not doubt that I would be confronted by security guards closer to 100% of the time I approach a bus stop. Hence the difference between racial and behavioral profiling, and how both come into play in the precautions taken against terrorism here in Israel.
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline aldo_14

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I have nothing against behavioural profiling, just institutional profiling (see the first link in my prev post;  it's a pretty succint summary of something close to my opinion).  My problem is that profiling is dscriminatory and thus damaging; when it extends to putting people under prolonged direct suspicion and restrictions, I think that causes more problems than it can possibly solve.

It's only when combined with existing effective methods - that don't require a 'profile' to be effective - that it can have any effect IMO.  

Because I think there are or will be a lot of Arabs who feel unfairly discriminated against in Israel, or particularly those who travel through Israeli checkpoints between the various territories.  I also think that places or reinforces cultural barriers that prevent any hope of peace and/or reconciliation; such as when, for example, you hear of ambulances stopped at checkpoints and leading to the death of a birthing mother or child*.

i.e. I don't think these things do anything to erode the base support of terrorists.  In some ways, IMO, it's comparable to police stopping and searching far more blacks than whites in 1960s America; people will react to it.

* I understand the reasons for this (previous use of ambulances to transport militants and/or weapons), but there's also the impact that weighs in here upon 'the other side' that I'm referring to.   If a mother and/or child dies because of a checkpoint, the natural instinct will be to blame the checkpoint, and it's not entirely unfair to do so.

Why they can't just have some sort of trust arrangement - perhaps even extending to Israel providing ambulance services under some bond of protection for their doctors when in the PT - I don't know.  But that's a side issue.

 

Offline Sandwich

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Just as a note, are you aware (yes, I know you're not American... :p) that the American policies for security checks to prevent terrorism at airports is also discriminatory? Whenever I fly an internal flight that was booked from back here in Israel, I am pulled aside at the gate for "random" security checks. I even know the marking on my ticket that indicates to the security forces that I should be checked. Last time I flew one of those flights, I went up to the gate, handed them my ticket, and told them that they need to randomly check me. They responded with a weird look and said, "Uhh, yes, we do, sir..." ;)

Anyway, that's discriminatory against ANYONE who purchaces their tickets from overseas, AFAIK. I can't be sure that it's not just against people who book their flights from the Mid-East, but I'm an American citizen, and I don't think they would put "American citizen in Mid-East" above "British Muslim" in the ranking of suspicion.
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Grey Wolf

From what I've heard, the security checks at American airports are incredibly pointless and by their nature have virtually no chance of catching anyone.
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline Galemp

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*cross references individual politics with responses in the ID vs. Evolution thread*

Interesting.
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