Author Topic: lets do this thing ONE MORE TIME!  (Read 29305 times)

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Offline Ghostavo

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Quote
Originally posted by Stealth
Yeah?

--- Isaiah 40: 22 Isaiah recorded that the earth was round ("circle of the earth") approximately 2,200 years prior to Columbus' claim in 1492.
[You must not have known the claims of Thales of Miletus when working with shadows that not only saw that the Earth was a sphere (well, not exactly) but took a guess at it's radius using shadows!]

--- The Bible declares that the earth is round and hangs in space (Prov. 8:27; Isa. 40:22; Job 26:7). Man did not discover this fact until 1475. It was discovered by Copernicus.
[See above and "hangs in space"? as opposed to what?]

--- The Bible declares that air has weight (Job. 28:25). Galileo discovered it in 1630
[I'm still trying to discover when air was declared to be weightless]

--- The Bible declares that the earth revolves around the sun (Job 38: 13-14). This was not discovered by man until 1500. Again, Copernicus made this wonderful discovery
[oh... don't you mean... *gasps* Aristarchus?]

--- The Bible declares that messages can be sent forth by "lightnings" or electricity (Job 38:35). Lightning is the only word the Hebrews had for electricity. Modern radio proves the Biblical scientific fact
[Although this is more of a nitpick, I don't think radio waves = electricity :p]

--- The Bible declares that the stars innumerable (Gen. 15:5; Jer. 33: 22). Hipparchus said there were only 1,022 stars. Ptolemy said there were 1,026. Galileo was the first to teach they could not be numbered
[Hipparchus catalogged over 1000 stars! Ptolemy also! They didn't say there were only 1000 stars, they catalogged them! Also, the stars are not innumerable, or else gravity would be a *****]

--- The Bible declares that the life of the flesh is in the blood (Lev. 14:12). William Harvey did not discover this truth until 1615
[Life of the flesh is a very ambiguous term... not exactly sure what you mean by that, but I'm pretty sure Hippocrates didn't think blood was irrelevant as to include it as one of his four humours]


Just some corrections :p The issues I've left out I'm not aware of.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 01:44:36 pm by 1606 »
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau


yay! welcome to the path brother, you've been entered into the unholy lottery, and you'll be getting your gift basket sometime next week. :)


It'd better have mangos in it!

 

Offline Roanoke

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Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
*Bob's Freaky Dream*


I keep dreaming about choking. Last time I was in a sinking Submarine or something and decided I was kill myself by jumping under water rather than wait for the inevitable. I woke up mega short of breath like I had actually stopped breathing or something (there is a sleep disorder where the suffer stops breathing BTW). Really weird bit, I recall being in some trippy half sleep-half awake state and thinking "Hmm, better start breathing again"

Puts you in a funny frame of mind for the day.

 

Offline WeatherOp

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Quote
Originally posted by StratComm
Bob, can't you see that WeatherOp is using classic ID arguing technique on you?  Instead of actually addressing the issue, they attempt character assassination as a diversionary tactic.  In his case, it's "I've found God and therefore I'm saved, you should find [my God] too [because I can't come up with an answer to your question/reason for your response that doesn't shatter my own world view]".


That gets a good chuckle from me.:lol: Oh no WeatherOp is trying to drag you into religion and trying to prove ID to you. Dude I won't ever try to drag someone into religion, one reason, religion won't do zip for you and secondly, if I could scare you into religion it's not gonna do anything for you anyways.

God is perfectly able in getting you anyways, All I can do is tell you what the Bible says and what I've got, and pray, thats my part.

Once again I say, find God, not religion.:nod:
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Offline StratComm

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That's just it, you're insulting me* by telling me I haven't found God.  How in hell would you know that?  You should know that it is not a Christian's place to judge, and yet that's just what you're doing.  The question is, do you realize it or not.

*I actually mean that in a most figurative sense.  It's an illustration of a point, since the post you quoted and the responce you made are a bit incongrous given the posts in between.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 03:55:25 pm by 570 »
who needs a signature? ;)
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

  

Offline Ford Prefect

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Indeed. To claim an understanding of the ways of the gods is hubris, and as we've discussed in another thread, the gods will castrate you, or make you have sex with your mom, or something else bad.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline TrashMan

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Quote
Originally posted by StratComm

And as someone who is somewhat religious, that saddens me.  I do wish people like that didn't exist because they represent the faith exceptionally poorly.  For every one person they think they've converted, they turn 1000 away.  But then I am in the camp that fully believes that taking care of one's own life is a first order priority, and doing God's work is only possible if your own life is in order.  I believe that God does not interfere in this life, and looking for Him to do so is just wasting your life away.  All the people I know who are comfortable in their faith don't need to go around proclaiming it to the world.  The way I see it, Christianity really boils down to two things: be good to your fellow man, and try to encourage others, by word and example to do the same.  The rest is philosophical and internal to one's own person, and so my beliefs there have nothing to do with how I interact with others.  Those who claim to love the Lord and still wrong other people are not keeping the faith in any meaningful way.  I'm sure I'll get flamed for saying that, but it's the closest thing to universal truth that I've found in my life so I'll stand by it unless I personally experience anything to discredit it.


I have to agree with this part. If you don't follow the most important of all comandments (actually two of them but of equal importance) thn you got no buisness calling yourself a real beliver.


EDIT - about that other thing:
Well scince can't explain the origin of the universe..in fact science has proven that it cannot prove any such theory (due to planks time and similar stuff). I have read al lthe latest theories that popped up one after another, only to be dismissed as more and more holes were found in it.
the only logical conclusion for me is that something must have started it all.. namely God. With that in mind, ID is not really far off, since by starting everything, you might say He designed it.

But that said it cannot be disproven or proven. I have nothing against it being MENTIONED in schools, but only as another possible theory. Nothing more, nothing else...
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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I still don't understand how you can claim there is a logical conclusion when there's still so much information we have yet to obtain. It's like looking at three pieces of a thousand-piece jigsaw puzzle and deciding you know what the picture is. (Note: This refers to the question of the universe's origin, not evolution.)
« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 04:41:30 pm by 2015 »
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline Flipside

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Well, I suppose there a bit of confusion about the old adage 'Whenever you have ruled out every other possiblity, whatever remains, must therefore be the truth.

Problem is with creation of the Universe is that there are new possibilities popping up all the time, as we learn more.

I don't rule out entirely the possibility that the universe was 'created' rather than came in to being, but applying a sentience, and indeed, a name to whatever did create the Universe is a leap of faith, for those that are strong in their faith, I with them luck, I have no wish for oblivion when I die, nobody does, but the line becomes blurred between fact and hope here.

The creation of the universe was a monumental event that happened so long ago in the past that most of what we have to learn from are echos, so learning about it is slow, but we'll get there, and maybe we will find God there waiting with open arms, and asking what took us so long, hope is a powerful thing. But we have to accept the possibility that maybe we wont.

 

Offline aldo_14

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I don't know where my Doves CD is.

I've looked in at least 3 different places, and not found it.  

Thus, it must have been taken by God into heaven.


Back OT....
There is no evidence for creationism, nor even a concrete theory.  It has no substance, not backing.  It is composed and defined entirely by attacks upon evolutionary theory - not criticisms, or observations, but simple deliberate misconstruation of observed facts, going so far as to ignore the evidence in support or invent false quotes from esteemed scientists  It is not, by any stretch of the imagination, science and should not be taught as such.

If we are satisfied with ascribing these things to 'God', not only do we halt the progress of human understanding and - dare I say - intellectual evolution, but we also invalidate the concept of God Himself.  

Because who is to say the biblical story of creation is any more valid than the Greek, the Mayan, the Aztec, the Aboriginal, the Egyptian, the Viking, and so on myths?  

Certainly none have any evidence to distinguish them, to make them any less 'true' than Christian mythos (or Jewish, Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim....), and if you want to pass off the Bible as science, then it's open to discrediting.  Such as the infamous explict value of pi, which is not only literally wrong, but further out than the values calculated by several civillisations preceeding (Egyptian and Babylonian were within 1% accuracy, Indians were a bit further out but still closer).

There is no evidence to disprove the Flying Spaghetti Monster - should we teach of the Glory of His Noodly Appendage as well as ID?  Should we replace physics and astronomy astronomy with the flat earth / geocentric universe theory because some people can justify that with the bible?  

Where does it end? Neurology with phrenology?  Alchemy with physics?

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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Quote
I don't rule out entirely the possibility that the universe was 'created' rather than came in to being, but applying a sentience, and indeed, a name to whatever did create the Universe is a leap of faith, for those that are strong in their faith, I with them luck, I have no wish for oblivion when I die, nobody does, but the line becomes blurred between fact and hope here.

But doesn't use of the word "created" necessitate sentience? There can't be creation-- as opposed to simple occurrence-- without intent, and there can't be intent without sentience.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline Flipside

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Depends on the definition of the word really, when Hydrogen and Oxygen react, you could say it 'creates' water, water wasn't there, a simple reaction takes place and water is suddenly there, at a cost of raw H and O and some energy.

The laws of physics suggest that the universe 'tends' towards a certain kind of behaviour in certain circumstances, a force does not need to be sentient to 'tend' towards certain actions, the universe could have been created by something outside of it purely as a natural reaction to certain pressures. I'm not saying I have proof or evidence or the like, this isn't a theory, merely very vague speculation and suggestion ;)

 

Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
There is no evidence to disprove the Flying Spaghetti Monster - should we teach of the Glory of His Noodly Appendage as well as ID?

Yes.
[I am not really here. This post is entirely a figment of your imagination.]

 

Offline aldo_14

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Fair enough.

EDIT;

I vote that in addition, we put a stick on all Bibles saying
 The contents of this book are argued to be conjecture and highly controversial.  Please note the Bible is a book of faith and not proven fact.

Bless His Noodly Appendage.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 05:15:20 pm by 181 »

 

Offline Kamikaze

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Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan

EDIT - about that other thing:
Well scince can't explain the origin of the universe..in fact science has proven that it cannot prove any such theory (due to planks time and similar stuff).


I would appreciate it very much if you backed your statement up, at the very least, with a couple of links to sources that acknowledge this. Hell, even an abstract from a research paper would be good. It's rather easy to proclaim that something has been "proven" (which, by the way, is an inappropriate term for scientific theories), especially when it's claimed to be some anonymous expert's doing. If you want to be taken seriously, back statements like this up.
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline TrashMan

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Wikipedia - Planck constant.

you can easiyl find dozen opf articels on the begining of universe..
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline BlackDove

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael

Yes.


:yes:

 

Offline WeatherOp

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Quote
Originally posted by StratComm
That's just it, you're insulting me* by telling me I haven't found God.  How in hell would you know that?  You should know that it is not a Christian's place to judge, and yet that's just what you're doing.  The question is, do you realize it or not.
 


And you're right, it isn't a Christian's place to judge, however I'm not doing the judging.;)
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Offline Kamikaze

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Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
Wikipedia - Planck constant.

you can easiyl find dozen opf articels on the begining of universe..


I'm asking you to present some specific examples of this proof you are referring to. That's the whole point; it's your claim, you should support it.

I bothered to read that article on the Planck constant in Wikipedia. The article did not mention the proof you mentioned, but mentioned the quantization of energy (discrete values opposed to a continuum of energy). How does that prove that science cannot theorize about the beginnings of the universe? I've also read plenty of articles on the beginning of the universe (such as the Big Bang article on Wikipedia) and I've yet to see any proof that science cannot explain the beginnings of the universe. So please post a specific source so we can actually understand what you're referring to.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 06:55:14 pm by 179 »
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline Stealth

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*poof* i'm back.

you've all raised very good points, definatley worth contemplating and meditating on.

Ghostavo: your post was the only one i read on this page, but i'd advise you to learn english before replying to that post :) j/k ;)

I'll now let my side-kicks continue, as i see they have been

at ease :D