Author Topic: Advise the President  (Read 4893 times)

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Offline Osiri

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:lol:

What percentage of the people on this web-site are US v. otherwise.  I notice there seem to be more non-US.

American Software companies will probably realize that the real fun would be to band together and not litigate each other on these invalid patents and just target non US software.

That would be fun eh.
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Offline Osiri

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Aldo, how much work do you think I am talking about....

Okay, I give up.
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Osiri

Aldo, how much work do you think I am talking about....


More than I have time for.

 

Offline vyper

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Quote
Originally posted by Osiri
:lol:

What percentage of the people on this web-site are US v. otherwise.  I notice there seem to be more non-US.

American Software companies will probably realize that the real fun would be to band together and not litigate each other on these invalid patents and just target non US software.

That would be fun eh.


And probably legally impossible.
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline Osiri

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Well what it would do is make the foreign software companies lives a living hell.  

Regardless of legal impossibility.
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Offline Osiri

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It would cost the US corps millions but it would cost the Foreign guys more and they would have to resolve the legalities to sell thier products.  Further, what the US corps would essentially be doing is shutting off the US market to foreigners but the foreign market would still be open to US corps.
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Offline karajorma

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Until the monopolies comissions of the various foreign countries got involved. Lets see MS laugh after the EU quite legally removes 10% of their profits for operating an illegal cartel.
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Offline Grey Wolf

Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
It would hurt American software more and when their entire market fell apart we Brits could claim back the computer market for the first time since WWII when we had the only one in existance :D
You're claiming the basis entirely on the Colossus? I think a Mr. Charles Babbage wants to talkt to you about that...

Yes, he was British, but you're off by a century :p
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Osiri
It would cost the US corps millions but it would cost the Foreign guys more and they would have to resolve the legalities to sell thier products.  Further, what the US corps would essentially be doing is shutting off the US market to foreigners but the foreign market would still be open to US corps.


Why?  They'd just put protectionist measures in charge if business was being hurt.  You'd see, for example, the EU going in hard on microsoft for various anti-trust stuff and whatnot (they wouldn't even have to address the patent issue).   China would do what they're tending to anyways, and just switch to domestic providers.  

Kind of like the squabbling over Airbus subsidies, or over bananas.

Don't assume the world would just kow-tow to US organisations; it's in every countries national interest to strengthen their native businesses, and it's only really politeness and the need to export and import that prevents major barriers to foreign companies.

 

Offline Osiri

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For any of you who are wondering this would apply to any industry not just computer software if they were able to get enough invalid patents through the USPTO.

Plus I did some fun calculations in the middle you have to read.  It shows the horror of our market.

Who said anything to the world markets.  It is not anti trust when the US government is the real power keeping you out.  We are talking about markets.  It would be an effective trade barrier without congressional support.  Huh, I wonder if this is George Bush's next protectionist manuever for US corps.

You see if the US patents effectively closed off the US market, Microsoft has done nothing wrong.  The US has done nothing wrong.  This again would require the help of almost every major software corp in US.  

Further who said anything about the world kow-towing to the US orgs.  There is no kow-tow.  You see you could not punish the corps, they are only doing what they are supposed to get patents.  Nor could you rationally punish the American government for enforcing patent rights of US corps(or at least invalidating them in the courts of law).  

Actually more than likely there would never be a court battle.  You see the foreign corps would have to pay so much on patent lawyers ;7 to figure out which patents would need to be challenged and to cite references and such that there would be a huge headache.

Again, Microsoft has done nothing wrong.  What are foreign nations going to do fine Microsoft of following(yes I know it is exploiting) the law.  What about every other software corp that is doing the same thing.  

Do you really think the EU would cut off all American Companies from selling their products in EU countries.  

Say goodbye to Windows(no loss there) but you would also say goodbye to UNIX, MAC, many of the Linux Software Corps, Interplay, Blizzard(even though it is a subsidiary of a Italian Corp), Dell(they have software), Gateway, every boutique software firm in the states, infograms, GPG, pandemic, Westwood(EA), every producer of applications(have I listed enough), IBM, Intel, AMD, Sun, Id.

You see the EU could not let any of these corps sell to the EU countries because punish just Microsoft and the other companies keep doing it.  Plus you have problems with proving intent.  I mean there are serious barriers to just hitting a corp with huge fines for something it did not really do.  It did screw you over thats true but it didn't violate a law or even establish a trust.  

There is no trust in a free market.  It is still a free market.  The problem is that the free market is hitting you over the head with patents.  You see all those corps I mentioned above would still be selling everything they wanted whereever they do now.  There is only a trust when a corp(Microsoft) destroys the free market part of the economy.  There isn't one when there is an oligarchy doing it. (anyone ever heard of gasoline)

The price for gasoline is a perfect example.  All the corps get together and set a market price.  They have the ability to raise and lower this price at will because everyone else selling gas will do the same thing as them.  If they want to raise costs to $3.00 a gallon on a whim they do it.  (they did it here after the refineries were getting back on their feet.  The truth is the gas companies can do as they want.  Regardless of the stock market, the feds or whatever(especially since Bush would never do anything to hurt big business), the corps decide how much they want to screw us over.  That is a trust, a monopoly.  But it is done in the form of a oligopoly so it won't get slapped around by governments.

BTW for anyone about to say that Hurricanes caused a need for a $.75 rise in gas prices consider this.

2-3 years ago the price for gas in the US was about 1.15---1.35.(maybe a little longer ago but not much) It is now 2.50---3.00 right.  Some would say huh that's not too bad thats only slightly more than double of thier gross income in 2-3 years.  Well thats not the whole story.

- mean subtract
--- means a range
Then
$1.35(consumer price) - $.50---$.60(tax) = $.75---$.85(gross)
$.75--$.85(gross)  - $.3---$.4(production) = $.35---$.55(profit)

Now
$3.00(consumer price) - $.60---$.70(tax) = $2.30---$2.40(gross)
$2.30---$2.40(gross) - $.35---$.45(production) =  $1.85---$2.05(profit)

What is the result.  A 270%---320% gross income increase.

BUT

HERES THE SCARY PART: A 336%---585% increase in net income(PURE PROFIT)

And no one has done anything about that trust.

I don't know the actual production cost but I have what I think is a low estimate for it so if it actually cost more to produce this gets worse. I have minorly adjusted production costs(probably too much) to compensate for the increase in worker pay and delivery increases).
if production is say $0.60 it is horrid the profit they are making check it out.

$1.35 -$.6 - $.6 = $.15 per gallon profit.

$3.00 - $.7 - $.7 = $1.60 per gallon

OVER TEN times the profit.  

Any questions.


Anyhow back to software do you really think foreign companies would really stop selling to US regardless of the loss in profits they would experience.  

The truth is within about 5 years the scheme would self destruct because our own congress is not quite this stupid.  But imagine the damage that could be done by this happening for 5 years.

There are some reasonable ways to keep this from happening but you know what.  All those would do is patch it.  There would be no way to truly stop the problem.

Rememeber you cannot slap around the US government unless it is discriminating against the other countries corps.  It is not.  Your corps can do this too if they want.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2005, 03:02:54 pm by 3173 »
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Offline Grey Wolf

Even if the patent was valid, they would still be sued for antitrust practices.
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline aldo_14

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If it's the US government, then we have no problem.  Whap some nice big tariffs on the likes of oil exports, withdraw international co-operation in the UN, impose tit-for-tat sanctions on all exports.... bing.  Lets not forget that the US relies a lot on, for example, cheap imports from China.

And you're assuming that Open Source would be affected.  Of course it wouldn't be.  If we lose windows...well,  a lot of countries have switched over to Linux now for exactly the reasons you indicate; national 'security'.  And that open code base wouldn't be handed over.  Plus the countries would, in this type of situation, protect their own companies from being applicable to US held patents.  And during this time, the likes of Dell would be suffering; instead we'd probably see a flood of consumer electronics from China & Japan, software from India and Europe (India already being a key source of cheap software).

Sure, no-one would be winning... but that's the point.  It's economic MAD; that's why no major economy can afford to practice 'proper' protectionism, and why we see attempts at it end in squabbling and like for like restrictions.

Would the EU cut off US companies?  If the US cut off EU companies, of course.  No nation would commit economic suicide by doing otherwise, even if the methods used to 'combat' it were not a direct mirror but something else.  (i.e. EU buys cheap bananas rather than US, US puts tariffs on cashmere from the Uk, etc)

You're implying a free market is universally good.  It's not; the main disadvantage is the likes of anti-trust, abuse of monopoly and profiteering.  These are not perhaps economically bad for business, but they are for populace.  Hence why we have checks and balances like antitrust, like preventing science and medicine from being patentable, etc.

 

Offline Osiri

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you guys got to go back and read the message 2 back if you havent
Got any patentable ideas?  Got $20K laying around.  I will need every penny to help you.

 

Offline Osiri

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oh and I know exactly what the taxes were at that time

I dont know them now but they are not that much more
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Offline Grey Wolf

Quote
Originally posted by Osiri
you guys got to go back and read the message 2 back if you havent
Speak the Queen's English, damn it!
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

  

Offline Osiri

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What you want me to speak properly.  Well, I never.  I hate writing like this.  I do it constantly for my work.

Also note aldo, most of my 50-55 posts are on this forum.

We have been arguing this along time.
Got any patentable ideas?  Got $20K laying around.  I will need every penny to help you.

 

Offline Grey Wolf

You're on a forum, which is a place for discussion. Not a place for typing sentences without any appreciation for grammar or capitalization.
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline Osiri

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Offline Osiri

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For the most part I am using very formal writing.  What can I say if I slip because I was running to class which I am currently in.
Got any patentable ideas?  Got $20K laying around.  I will need every penny to help you.

 

Offline aldo_14

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I find it strange you're measuring the issue of oil in terms of profit for companies rather than demand (offhand, the US is by far the worlds largest importer of oil; I believe the strategic reserve is also now being opened to counter refinery shortages post-Catrina).  Oil embargoes would not be intended to put oil companies out of business, but raise prices and thus political pressure upon governments to react.

I would point out in the oil example that only really applies to the US domestic market.