[Taristin]

I used a purple one like... yesterday? Or two days ago? I can't remember... they pass them out at the planned parenthood office on campus.

[NegspectahDek]

Originally posted by WMCoolmon
Why not fund scolarships targetted at people lacking opportunities?

because, while I was at the Univ of Oklahoma, and I understand this is happening all over the country, white students are suing claiming reverse discrimination.  they win their cases, and the scholarship programs are shut down.  We can't win in this country.

Originally posted by Goober5000
Why should it be such a big deal if different races have different inherent academic or physical strengths? Look at blacks in basketball or Asians in math for example.

it shouldn't.  Some of it is cultural, some not.  Some cultures, Asians and some in the Caribbean for example, place more emphasis on education, making it more important than anything else growing up.  SO of course it's going to look like your smarter.  That being said, if you breed slaves to be bigger and stronger, they WILL get bigger and stronger.  If it was a racial thing, all countries with significant black populations would dominate in the Olympics.  But thats not whats happening.

DeepBlue, I've seen of the stuff youve written and I think you just have a personal problem with black people.  Get over it.

FordPrefect, I think the best way to fix the problem with school funding is to change the way its funded.  Right now schools are locally funded out of property taxes, so richer areas are going to have better funded and better schools.  If we make funding more uniform across the state or county level,  we wouldnt have half the problems we have now with school inequities

[redmenace]

Originally posted by NegspectahDek
because, while I was at the Univ of Oklahoma, and I understand this is happening all over the country, white students are suing claiming reverse discrimination.  they win their cases, and the scholarship programs are shut down.  We can't win in this country.
We can't win? When is it ever about winning? Its about progress and fixing a grave mistake. Secondly, if you demand anti-discrimination laws, the door swings both ways. You must have heard of the 14th admendment(equal protection IIRC). Now, if these programs were designed to help lower class students regaurdless of race, then there is an issue.

it shouldn't.  Some of it is cultural, some not.  Some cultures, Asians and some in the Caribbean for example, place more emphasis on education, making it more important than anything else growing up.  SO of course it's going to look like your smarter.  That being said, if you breed slaves to be bigger and stronger, they WILL get bigger and stronger.  If it was a racial thing, all countries with significant black populations would dominate in the Olympics.  But thats not whats happening.
I actually agree with you for the most part.

DeepBlue, I've seen of the stuff youve written and I think you just have a personal problem with black people.  Get over it.
Umm yeah, unless you can walk a mile in his shoes, don't go accusing others of borderline racism. Its not a nice thing to do.

FordPrefect, I think the best way to fix the problem with school funding is to change the way its funded.  Right now schools are locally funded out of property taxes, so richer areas are going to have better funded and better schools.  If we make funding more uniform across the state or county level,  we wouldnt have half the problems we have now with school inequities
That doesn't really fix the problem. You are basically redistributing resources. In the end all school will suck. We will just suck uniformally. Can you show me some actual numbers to back up what you are saying?

[Rictor]

If I had a company, it would comply fully with all Equal Opportunity laws. All my Chinese and Indian employies would be in the IT department, all the Whites would be in Management, all the blacks would be Custodial Staff, the rednecks would be in Shipping, Swiss and French employies would be in Design department, Filipinos would staff my sweatshops and I would have a fat, bald shirtless guy to beat the drums.

DUN-DUN-DUN-DUN

Back to work, scum!

DUN-DUN-DUN-DUN

That was a completely irrelevant post. It was just an excuse to amuse myself with various racial sterotypes. I'm sorry.

[StratComm]

Damnit redmenace, that's impossible to quote!

The whole redistributing-resources thing.  That's actually a means to an end; if schools suck uniformly and rich people have to send their kids to them, then there's that much more pressure to actually fix things.  I came up in a school that had basically no operating budget, and there are definitely a lot of resources that we simply didn't have access to.  Meanwhile, the high school that served the county's country club always operated with a huge budget, and offered a ton of classes that I would not only have liked to take had there been resources to teach them at my school, but which also would have legitimately helped me in college.  The disparity in resources isn't a rare or a minor thing, by any means, and it's definitely a big part of the problem.

[redmenace]

Umm all the rich people will do is send their kids to private schools.

[Grey Wolf]

Redmenace has it in one.  As for the whole minority-only scholarships, many don't go to lower income students. I have a friend who has a Hispanic scholarship, and he's upper middle class.

[NegspectahDek]

Originally posted by redmenace
Originally posted by NegspectahDek
because, while I was at the Univ of Oklahoma, and I understand this is happening all over the country, white students are suing claiming reverse discrimination. they win their cases, and the scholarship programs are shut down. We can't win in this country.


We can't win? When is it ever about winning? Its about progress and fixing a grave mistake. Secondly, if you demand anti-discrimination laws, the door swings both ways. You must have heard of the 14th admendment(equal protection IIRC). Now, if these programs were designed to help lower class students regaurdless of race, then there is an issue.

its been about winning ever since someone decided that they had the right to rape, pillage, colonize, mass murder, enslave, destroy ad nauseum on their way to controlling the world.  I didn't make the rules, but I still have to play by them.


DeepBlue, I've seen of the stuff youve written and I think you just have a personal problem with black people. Get over it.

Umm yeah, unless you can walk a mile in his shoes, don't go accusing others of borderline racism. Its not a nice thing to do.

boderline?  maybe I wasn't clear enough

FordPrefect, I think the best way to fix the problem with school funding is to change the way its funded. Right now schools are locally funded out of property taxes, so richer areas are going to have better funded and better schools. If we make funding more uniform across the state or county level, we wouldnt have half the problems we have now with school inequities
That doesn't really fix the problem. You are basically redistributing resources. In the end all school will suck. We will just suck uniformally. Can you show me some actual numbers to back up what you are saying?
people talk about equal chance this equal chance that.  when something comes along that would equalize things, they sidestep.  Some schools would get better funding, some worse.  Both groups head towards a mean.  Not perfect.  But more equal.  

Poverty Study

I tihnk we can agree that people naturally segregate their communities by race in this country.  Blacks are 12% of the pop, so 36 million.  Whites are about 75% i think so 225 million.  about one fifth of all blacks and one tenth of all whites are below the poverty line.  Blacks as a race have two strikes against them.  Schools are funded by prop taxes.  
1) Fully 20% of all blacks have no disposable income to spend n property to get taxed to better fund their schools, and 2) thee are less of us.  Less of us and we make less money.  Whites on the other hand, have more schools, and more good schools.  How any person can oppose giving someone a leg up when the deck is stacked against them is beyond me.  But this is America.


Whats particularly upsetting to me in the case of the loss of race based scholarships is the fact that most of these guys suing if they needed money, they could go to these programs and ask.  I personally knew the head of the program at OU.  She turned nobody away that needed help.  NO ONE.  But you have people suing to take something away from someone else, instead trying to find sometihng for themselves.  When that stops, we'll have won.  And by won, I mean not losing anymore.  Cause this will never be our country.

[Grey Wolf]

So you post a photoshopped image to back your argument?

[NegspectahDek]

yup.  it would have no relevance if it wasn't funny.  why is it funny?  Because we're only 40 years removed from firemen hosing us down.  The kind of thinking and social institututions that goes into a government doing that to its "citizens" doesn't just go away in a generation, no matter how much people wish it to be so.

[Taristin]

Originally posted by Rictor
If I had a company, it would comply fully with all Equal Opportunity laws. All my Chinese and Indian employies would be in the IT department, all the Whites would be in Management, all the blacks would be Custodial Staff, the rednecks would be in Shipping, Swiss and French employies would be in Design department, Filipinos would staff my sweatshops and I would have a fat, bald shirtless guy to beat the drums.

DUN-DUN-DUN-DUN

Back to work, scum!

DUN-DUN-DUN-DUN

That was a completely irrelevant post. It was just an excuse to amuse myself with various racial sterotypes. I'm sorry.

You never see animals going through the absurd and often horrible fooleries of magic and religion.... Dogs do not ritually urinate in the hope of persuading heaven to do the same and send down rain. Asses do not bray a liturgy to cloudless skies. Nor do cats attempt, by abstinence from cat's meat, to wheedle the feline spirits into benevolence. Only man behaves with such gratuitous folly. It is the price he has to pay for being intelligent but not, as yet, quite intelligent enough.

                                                                                              Aldous Huxley


That was a completely irrelevant post. I just wanted a place to post it...

[Grey Wolf]

Originally posted by NegspectahDek
yup.  it would have no relevance if it wasn't funny.  why is it funny?  Because we're only 40 years removed from firemen hosing us down.  The kind of thinking and social institututions that goes into a government doing that to its "citizens" doesn't just go away in a generation, no matter how much people wish it to be so.

I honestly find it in rather poor taste, and not remotely amusing.

[redmenace]

Originally posted by NegspectahDek
its been about winning ever since someone decided that they had the right to rape, pillage, colonize, mass murder, enslave, destroy ad nauseum on their way to controlling the world.  I didn't make the rules, but I still have to play by them.
What?

boderline?  maybe I wasn't clear enough
Just wow.

people talk about equal chance this equal chance that.  when something comes along that would equalize things, they sidestep.  Some schools would get better funding, some worse.  Both groups head towards a mean.  Not perfect.  But more equal.  
Uh huh, and like I said. You drag everyone down with you.

I tihnk we can agree that people naturally segregate their communities by race in this country.  Blacks are 12% of the pop, so 36 million.  Whites are about 75% i think so 225 million.  about one fifth of all blacks and one tenth of all whites are below the poverty line.  Blacks as a race have two strikes against them.  Schools are funded by prop taxes.  
1) Fully 20% of all blacks have no disposable income to spend n property to get taxed to better fund their schools, and 2) there are less of us.  Less of us and we make less money.  Whites on the other hand, have more schools, and more good schools.  How any person can oppose giving someone a leg up when the deck is stacked against them is beyond me.  But this is America.
Ok, I was asking for budget numbers of schools, not photoshoped rhetoric and 5 year old numbers of poverty statistics that seemingly show a downward trend.

Whats particularly upsetting to me in the case of the loss of race based scholarships is the fact that most of these guys suing if they needed money, they could go to these programs and ask.  I personally knew the head of the program at OU.  She turned nobody away that needed help.  NO ONE.  But you have people suing to take something away from someone else, instead trying to find sometihng for themselves. When that stops, we'll have won.  And by won, I mean not losing anymore.
Have you ever read the 14th admendment and the civil rights act? It is my constitutional right to have the law equally protect me and you. Being denied a scholarship because of the pigment of my skin is retarded and violates the Civil Rights Act and thus the 14th admendment.

Cause this will never be our country.
You know where the preverbal door is. And before you go around making the grave mistake of calling me racist, my parents adopted 2 inner city children from Philly. They are my flesh and blood. They are Americans. They are my brother and sister. Not Black. Not African American. Not Negro.

[Flipside]

To be honest NegspectahDek, I didn't find Deepblues comment racist, simply a natural human reaction, seeing something that is only being offered to people on a selective basis in which you are not included is bound to cause offence, 'No Blacks, No Irish' being the world famous example. Such treatment will produce the same results regardless of the colour of skin or who it is being commited against.

I'm not knowledgeable enough in the American Education System to talk about the subject at hand really, though I do understand why such things exist, because the Afro American community is hit by a double whammy of lower education funds and pre-concieved stereotypes regarding them.

The swinging of the balance, however needs to be in the centre, at the moment some are saying that whites are being disciminated against, some are saying that blacks are being discriminated against, when in truth, most of the discrimination on both sides is being done by people running round with a little 'model' in their heads of what each race is like based on Stereotypes. That's where such fallacies as 'Blacks are better Athletes' or 'Easterners are good with technology' etc comes from in the first place.

[NegspectahDek]

Originally posted by Grey Wolf
I honestly find it in rather poor taste, and not remotely amusing.

 i laugh to keep from crying

@redmenace,

Either you understand that the world isn't kumbaya help your brother, or you don't.  

i appreciate you estimation of my photshop skills, but really they are nowhere near that good.  You might have missed that link i placed underneath the pic as proof.
So you don't miss it this time  I don't have budget numbers.  Try logic.  Schools funded by how much you make.  You make less, therefore schools not funded as well.  Downward trend or no, the poverty percentage is twice that for blacks as whites.  And the trend does show the situation is improving.  And just for your information, these studies are based on the Census, which is only taken every ten years, and the last year the numbers are good for is 1999, which shockingly is the last year shown on the graph

Might i suggest reading?  The director of the program gave money to everyone that needed it.  Black, yellow brown, green, purple, white.  Everyone.  We had several whites in the Minority Engineering Program at OU.  Last time I checked whites were the majority.  This is discriminating how? The mere existence of the 14th amendment and civil rights speak more to the need for such protections than the progressiveness of our country.

I understand that this isn't my country.  It was stolen fair and square.  Just let me thank you for the free boat ride over here and accomodations and I'll be on my way.

[NegspectahDek]

@Flipside,
taken by itself, no its not.  but i've notice he/she has something funny to say.  I can understand how seeing that would put someone off, but if there wasn't a need for it, it wouldn't be there.  At my uni, total enrollment was about 25000 my freshman year.  Of that, black enrollment was about 8%, and we had the race based scholarships.  In the engineering dept alone, there were 300 black freshman.  We lost the scholarships after my 3rd year.  In my 5th year (f'in engineering), we had 150 black freshman total for all disciplines.  Numbers speak.

[StratComm]

Originally posted by redmenace
Umm all the rich people will do is send their kids to private schools.

So they still pay taxes, and the resources that their kids would have used would be spread among everyone.  Money is often the deciding factor in a lot of things (teacher salary, equipment, etc) that determine how good of an education a child can recieve.  As a consequense, school vouchers are a *bad idea* because they eliminate the double cost (taxes+tuition) that serves as a deterent to people just sticking their kids in private schools and rather ensures that they keep a vested interest in the quality of public schools.

Funding being so dependent on local income is not the whole problem with American schools, by any means.  But the inherent unfairness of the current system isn't helping things.

[Grey Wolf]

Originally posted by NegspectahDek

I understand that this isn't my country.  It was stolen fair and square.

That sentence only makes sense if you're a 200 year old Native American.

[redmenace]

Originally posted by NegspectahDek
@redmenace,

Either you understand that the world isn't kumbaya help your brother, or you don't.  

i appreciate you estimation of my photshop skills, but really they are nowhere near that good.  You might have missed that link i placed underneath the pic as proof.
I know you didn't make that.

So you don't miss it this time  I don't have budget numbers.  Try logic.  Schools funded by how much you make.  You make less, therefore schools not funded as well.  Downward trend or no, the poverty percentage is twice that for blacks as whites.  And the trend does show the situation is improving.  And just for your information, these studies are based on the Census, which is only taken every ten years, and the last year the numbers are good for is 1999, which shockingly is the last year shown on the graph
I saw the webpage the first time. As per the numbers, too bad, I do wish I could see more recent data. As per logic, you forget there are businesses etc that cities can tax the **** out of and do.

Might i suggest reading?  The director of the program gave money to everyone that needed it.  Black, yellow brown, green, purple, white.  Everyone.  We had several whites in the Minority Engineering Program at OU.  Last time I checked whites were the majority.  This is discriminating how? The mere existence of the 14th amendment and civil rights speak more to the need for such protections than the progressiveness of our country.
I read it the first time. But if they are using the raced based scholarships, meaning written policy, then there is a case for them to be shut down according to the law. It is nice that she helped non minority students. But giving students an automatic leg up because of their race is illegal, ala the University of Michigan case where there was ingrained in the system bias or a preference. But in all fairness I would need to read the court briefs from these cases to make any real judgement.

I understand that this isn't my country.  It was stolen fair and square.  Just let me thank you for the free boat ride over here and accomodations and I'll be on my way.
You are welcome here. But if you want to insist that you are not american and mearly a hostage, well then leave. As per the atrocities of the south, slavery etc. It was our mistake. We paid for it. And we are still paying for it.

[CP5670]

Totally agree with the article. The non-merit based college selection and employment criteria are ridiculous in this day and age. I don't see this changing anytime soon though; around university campuses, the emphasis on "diversity" is only increasing, with more of these racial, ethnic and gender-based scholarships and programs coming up all the time.

But giving students an automatic leg up because of their race is illegal, ala the University of Michigan case where there was ingrained in the system bias or a preference.

It's still done by just about every university unfortunately. Everyone knows that in a college admission process for a math undergrad program for example, a black female applicant will always be preferred to an Asian male one if their other qualifications are similar (and sometimes even if they aren't), which puts people like me at a disadvantage.