[aldo_14]

Heaven was created by God.  Religion is created by man.  That's my take on the whole multi-faith situation.

[jdjtcagle]

That would be most people's conclusion in a Science based community...

[karajorma]

Besides, if atheists get into heaven what's the point in being a christian?

[Knight Templar]

Wasting a lot of time I guess.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by karajorma
Besides, if atheists get into heaven what's the point in being a christian?

A warm, fuzzy feeling?

[diamondgeezer]

Originally posted by Setekh
Interesting that you keep tabs on that. So, how has the world attendance rating been going? Got numbers?

Not on me. I just remember the fact that the numbers are going down, as I found it amusing. Remember that religion thread I started a while back? It was inspired by an uber survey on the BBC news website, and one of the articles looked at this very statistic. I can't find it now, but I did find these:

Sunday Worship In Decline

Scotland Is Pagan (yay Scotland!)

Christianity 'Almost Vanquished In UK'

Sunday School In Steep Decline (good, Sunday School is a particularly insidious form of brain washing)

Church Of England 'Losing It's Flock'

Originally posted by TrashMan
@diamondgeezer   -    
As far as church attendance goes - it's not really that important. I know lot's of christians, who are all belivers, but don't go to Church anymore (they watch a transmission from the church on TV mostly). Praying to God doesn't mean you HAVE to be in the church to do it. And the attendance does vary from church to church...

Now, you may remember that my Christian housemate reckons you have to believe in God n' Jesus AND attend church and pray regulalry, or you go to Hell irrespective of your conduct in life. Kind of... imagine if Kazan were a commited Christian. Anyway, my point is - prove to me you're right and he's wrong.

I fully agree that one doesn't have to be in a church for God to hear you. They call him omnipresent for a reason. In theory the whole universe is a temple to his 1337ness, right? However, I can't help but notice how Christianity changes to suit social evolution and changes in fashion. Today we have people 'attending' church via TV, or over the internet. What's going to happen in the future? You gonna build a robot to do your praying for you?

Taking this theme and diverging a little from answering your point, Christianity can't be taken seriously because it keeps reinventing itself. In theory, God, Jesus and all those prophet fellows laid down the law as it is, right? But today we don;t believe the same things we did 500 years ago. Or 1000 years ago. So forth, so on, et cetera. How can a religion change the way that Christianity has - going from stoning women, genocide and holy wars, through torture of 'heretics' and witch-hunts, to trying to supress astronomy and biology research and in to the present era of promoting peace and love. How the hell is that the same religion? Are you still following the same rules laid down 2000 years ago? Or are you going to tell me every Christian has been mis-interpreting the Bible up until the present generation (who can't even agree amongst themselves on most issues).

And you know what else? In fifty or a hundred years time, the Chruch will have evolved again. Gays will be accepted and abortion will be viewed as an unfortunate but sometimes life-saving operation. If you don't believe me, just try to imagine repeating your statement about God and Allah being one and the same 500 years ago. If you'd even have said it, you'd have been lynched.

Heh. You know, I think I've just stumbled on the greatest irony to date. Religion denies to process of evolution - but the Christian faith had had to evolve constantly to survive in changing social climates. Quite frankly,

Oh, and here's an article with a comedy picture of the Pope

[Bobboau]

what if the light at the end of the tunnel is a mouth?

[jdjtcagle]

Denies Evolution... Maybe, but not abdaptation

[karajorma]

Originally posted by jdjtcagle
Denies Evolution... Maybe, but not abdaptation

That's all evolution is. The long term result of small adaptations

Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Not on me. I just remember the fact that the numbers are going down, as I found it amusing. Remember that religion thread I started a while back? It was inspired by an uber survey on the BBC news website, and one of the articles looked at this very statistic. I can't find it now, but I did find these:

I think I've already linked to the part of the site. Here's the main page

What the world thinks of God

PDF version of the survey

[an0n]

There's a thing.....

Anyone who tells you you'll be with all your friends and loved ones is a ****ing liar.

You've got to figure that, given the laws of averages, at least half of them will be in Hell. And your dog most certainly won't be in Heaven because it didn't believe in God......Do dogs even have souls, according to the Bible?

[Setekh]

Definitely agreed about the shape of the Christian church in the Western world. The numbers don't lie. I oppose the assertion that that's an indicator that the church is declining. The church has been thought of as declining ever since its inception, but it grows elsewhere.

[TrashMan]

Originally posted by diamondgeezer

Now, you may remember that my Christian housemate reckons you have to believe in God n' Jesus AND attend church and pray regulalry, or you go to Hell irrespective of your conduct in life. Kind of... imagine if Kazan were a commited Christian. Anyway, my point is - prove to me you're right and he's wrong.

I fully agree that one doesn't have to be in a church for God to hear you. They call him omnipresent for a reason. In theory the whole universe is a temple to his 1337ness, right? However, I can't help but notice how Christianity changes to suit social evolution and changes in fashion. Today we have people 'attending' church via TV, or over the internet. What's going to happen in the future? You gonna build a robot to do your praying for you?

Taking this theme and diverging a little from answering your point, Christianity can't be taken seriously because it keeps reinventing itself. In theory, God, Jesus and all those prophet fellows laid down the law as it is, right? But today we don;t believe the same things we did 500 years ago. Or 1000 years ago. So forth, so on, et cetera. How can a religion change the way that Christianity has - going from stoning women, genocide and holy wars, through torture of 'heretics' and witch-hunts, to trying to supress astronomy and biology research and in to the present era of promoting peace and love. How the hell is that the same religion? Are you still following the same rules laid down 2000 years ago? Or are you going to tell me every Christian has been mis-interpreting the Bible up until the present generation (who can't even agree amongst themselves on most issues).

And you know what else? In fifty or a hundred years time, the Chruch will have evolved again. Gays will be accepted and abortion will be viewed as an unfortunate but sometimes life-saving operation. If you don't believe me, just try to imagine repeating your statement about God and Allah being one and the same 500 years ago. If you'd even have said it, you'd have been lynched.

Heh. You know, I think I've just stumbled on the greatest irony to date. Religion denies to process of evolution - but the Christian faith had had to evolve constantly to survive in changing social climates. Quite frankly,
 

The Church fundations never changed - the people did, and they interpreted it differently (some used it for their own pousrposes).

They were burning whiches becoause they were too ignorant in that time to know that there aren't any. Once the understanding of humanity increased, they could better understand the world, and interpret some things correctly.

In it's basis, Christianity never changed, and never will.
And remember the 9 circles of hell? Don't you think there just might be something like that in heaven?
So all good people can go there, but only the really good ones go on top. Makes perfecrt sense, right?

And Christ died for the whole humanity, not just for his followers (he explicitly said that!)

[Grey Wolf]

You realize that Dante was making up the entire Divine Comedy, don't you, Trashman?

[Knight Templar]

Trashman: No ****, but if you don't acknowledge Christ dying, then you don't get his gift.

If your mom mailed you a present for your birthday, but you don't know who she is and you get mail from some person you think is a pyscho and mark *RETURN TO SENDER* on it, you obviously aren't going to get your gift.

[Ghostavo]

Originally posted by TrashMan
And Christ died for the whole humanity, not just for his followers (he explicitly said that!)

What better way to raise simpaty for him than to say exactly that? If he had said it only for his followers he would have been viewed as a tyrant (sp?) like most rulers of those ages.

In it's basis, Christianity never changed, and never will.

Please tell me... what exactly is at it's basis that never changed? Desire to take Sunday mornings away from their followers?

And remember the 9 circles of hell? Don't you think there just might be something like that in heaven?
So all good people can go there, but only the really good ones go on top. Makes perfecrt sense, right?

Except for one thing... what is better in one "circle of heaven" than the next one? Like Liberator says in many of his posts (please correct me if I'm wrong Lib)

"Heaven is good because the people there are in the physical presence of God (...)"

They were burning whiches becoause they were too ignorant in that time to know that there aren't any. Once the understanding of humanity increased, they could better understand the world, and interpret some things correctly.

What are people interpreting correctly in the Bible now they didn't interpret correctly in the middle ages? Just for curiosity of course.

The Church fundations never changed - the people did, and they interpreted it differently (some used it for their own pousrposes).

I actually like this highlighted part of your post... except your use of the past instead of the infinitive!

[diamondgeezer]

Originally posted by TrashMan
The Church fundations never changed - the people did, and they interpreted it differently (some used it for their own pousrposes).

[/b]
But today you and your church buddies are doing it right, I suppose? Even though few Christians can agree amongst themselves on what's actually right.

They were burning whiches becoause they were too ignorant in that time to know that there aren't any. Once the understanding of humanity increased, they could better understand the world, and interpret some things correctly.

And today gays are persecuted. Hopefully our understanding of humanity will further increase and come forget what all the fuss was about in the first place. But of course that would mean the church today is doing it wrong, just like the church of yesteryear was wrong to burn 'witches'

In it's basis, Christianity never changed, and never will.

That's pushing it a bit. Sure, the absolute one-line sound-byte core is the same - worship God n' Jesus and be rewarded after death. But the way people go about this has changed dramatically. Time was you had to commit genocide agains the Muslims to get in to Heaven.

And remember the 9 circles of hell? Don't you think there just might be something like that in heaven?
So all good people can go there, but only the really good ones go on top. Makes perfecrt sense, right?

[/b]
As GW pointed out, Dante pulled the nine circles thing out of his arse. And ot be honest it sounds like you just pulled the circles of Heaven concept out of your arse to support your argument. And besides, a multi-tier Heaven would suck. Somehow I seriously doubt there's any discrimination in Heaven. AFAIK, God creates us all equal.

And Christ died for the whole humanity, not just for his followers (he explicitly said that!)

This is all well and good in the case of actual sinners, but if I remember Christ's sacrifice was to gain forgivness for the original sin, ie. Eve ****ing up. Well I call bull**** on the whole deal. I resent subsequent generations having to pay the price for Eve's ****up, if indeed that's the way it went down. Apparently one of my ancestors in the 1500's was a highwayman, but I'm sure as hell not expected ot pay for his crimes. I don't care if God himself wants to put the rap for original sin on me - I'll tell him to His face where He can stick it. And since, AFAIK, I've remained clear of any major sin in my life, I've got nothing I need Jesus to top himself for. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate a bit of noble self-sacrifice to save others, but I don't feel I've got anything I need to beg forgiveness for so thanks Jesus, but I'm fine without you dying for me ('specially since I'm going to die myself anyway - and don't say the idea is to go to Heaven because an0n's already disproved it's existance)