Author Topic: Gun Crime in the UK  (Read 2847 times)

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Offline aldo_14

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After all, people will still try and get away from persuing police cars - and helicopters - on the roads, despite the obvious futility of it.......
Most people aren't actually aware that they are mortal unless they have a minute to think about it. Then most of those realize that they might be doing something stupid, and then slow down/drop the knife and calm down. The rest worry about their own ass and then do something stupid. And a small minority just don't care, about anything at all.

Which is why the police don't use - or need to use - firearms but talk to criminals.  Pointing a gun at someone is inherently an offensive act, and as such it means they may respond in kind; you risk creating a standoff situation where the most immediately apparent solution is just to shoot.  Also, it's worth noting that in this country at least, the criminals with guns are usually either the most die hard, or the most idiotic; that is, the people who are least inclined to either consider their mortality (particularly in the idiocy column) or accept the possibility of jail.  If someone arms themselves, it's usually because they want to be able to (to paraphrase somewhat) shoot themselves out of trouble; in that occasion you need specialists to contain the situation, like SO19, and that's something which the ordinary bobby would have trouble doing (simple because the first respondents would only be one or two people) - whether armed or not.

 

Offline Kosh

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Quote
This, for some unknown reason, has started off this whole discussion regarding arming Police officers again, noting that this Officer was shot whilst getting out of her car, and even if she had been armed, a bullket proof vest would have been far more useful than a gun. Theres also talk of re-introducing the death sentence.

I think you guys are getting yet another wonderful export of the US: Paranoia. :p
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Offline Martinus

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Take a look at Northern Ireland's police force. Until the last few years it wasn't too strange to see a landrover full of assualt rifle toting squaddies to be seen backing up the police.
It is awfully disconcerting though.

Obviously having a 'nationalist' name made me more wary, but to see people who are supposed to be protecting the public, heavily armed (mp5's being the norm), really does make most people nervous. Now the army presence has been scaled back and the police are riding around in more conventional vehicles, it's gone a long way towards making the police seem more like public servants and less like enforcers.

Sectarian crime aside it might be interesting to see how many shooting incidents happened over here compared to mainland UK given that police have always been armed.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Arm all Police. Prevention is better than cure. ALthough if i was in charge, Martial law would be an everyday thing, The army would be the arm of the law and it would be a police state, Capital punishment worked before, it can work again.
BTW im 23, ex soldier and i highly abhor disrispect of moral and social standards of living.
Max offensive action towards crime will stamp it out !!

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Offline pyro-manic

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Well, I'm very glad you're not in charge.
Any fool can pull a trigger...

 

Offline Flipside

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Indeed!

I think 'beat the crap out of people who offend you' is quite possibly the worst idea of the lot, after all, it's that mentality that leads to a lot of gang-fights in the first place.

 

Offline Prophet

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At this point I wish to remind you of two things...

First. Keep in mind that an armed police officer does not mean a armored commando carrying assaultrifle and bazooka (unless something serious is going on).
Take a look how much crap cops carry on their belts. A pistol would seem only another black object next the rubber-tree branch or maze or whatever they carry in your country.

Secondly. Arming a police officer does not automatically mean criminals will be shot. This is where our opinions collide. I don't actually remember any incident where a police officer would have been found shooting criminals without a very, very good reason, in here I mean. And trust me, the media here would quickly turn any kind of police brutality in to a national emergency (they like to enlarge issues).
But we have smaller police force than many other countries, and thus there is less chance that a gunfreak psychopath could get a badge. It is also noteworthy that our "crime culture" is propably much different from UK. Hence I see nothing wrong in an armed police officer, because it works here. In UK you have more people = more weirdoes = more crime.

I do not know what would happen in UK should the police be armed. But remember that guns don't kill people, people do...
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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No not at all, firstly i insist Police are armed for the safety above all else. Living in south east london "Happy Slappers" were peaking out this time last year. Imagine my surprise when a fifteen year old tried to slap me down on the 136 fom peckham to grove park. Imagine his surprise when i broke his nose. This was not unprovoked assault this was self defense. I deflected his initial assault, Then retaliated when he didn't lay off. qoute "Wha no, me gwahn a get bloods down on yo 'Ed piece". Cue said ASBO rearing back for a punch/slap to my head. Enter my fist from stage left.

The above example is just to demonstrate, Force is not there to be applied, It should be there as an option to put down a similarly offensive negative force. Should the police encounter a criminal element willing to use extreme physical/illegal means, The option to lay it down on them in a defensive/suppressive mannar should be open to them.

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-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
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-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

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That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
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Offline pyro-manic

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And it is, through SO19 and armed response vehicle teams. They are trained to deal with "extreme", ie heavily armed criminals. What you don't want is the first beat cops who arrive to get all aggressive, which means the bad guys start shooting the place up in response, getting themselves and other people killed, when the situation can usually be resolved peacefully.
Any fool can pull a trigger...

 

Offline Flipside

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Defending yourself from personal attack is one thing. Going around armed, however, is anticipating attack, not defending from it. Anyone arrested in possesion of a weapon says it's because 'someone might attack me'. Having the weapon encourages the use of it. You punched the guy, good, he deserved it, but what if it was just some normal untrained civvy on the bus who carried a knife because he was scared? Would things have gone as smoothly? And who is to blame?
We've already had one person die because of badly transmitted info and panic-reactions from armed police. I think working ourselves up into a frenzy of how terrible the UK has become lately is severe over-reacting. Paedophilia is a perfect example. In the 1950's more children were dissapearing never to be seen again than are now. We are merely more aware of it through media etc. So what we think is a Paedophile craze on the rise is far from true, it's always been there, we've just never been aware of it. Same to a large degree with rape, child/wife/husband beating etc etc.
Also, it should be noted that the whole death penalty thing that was suggested was only for cop-killers, it's illegal under our entry to the EU anyway, but it still narked me.
Whilst I'm all for justice, I think our law is pathetically weak to criminals, we need to be less yielding, however, arming the Police because one WPC was shot, no matter how terrible the crime, still strikes me as a kneejerk reaction, and it would hurt the Police and the communities far far more than it would help them.

 

Offline Prophet

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What you don't want is the first beat cops who arrive to get all aggressive, which means the bad guys start shooting the place up in response, getting themselves and other people killed, when the situation can usually be resolved peacefully.
Yeah right. They have many Rambo fans in your country? No reasonable "beat cop" would never go in to a hostile situation with an armed group of criminals. Special units are reserved just for that, special cases.
A cop who thinks he's John Wayne when he gets himself a piece is a bad cop.
A cop who shoots first and asks questions later isn't even a cop.
Perhaps it is better that british cops remain unarmed. Seeing as the puplic doesn't trust the police. You know them better than I do.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Bottom line: Police are trained in the use of restraint in both the United States and the UK, not in the use of force. They have it etched into their skulls in the academies. Giving them firearms does not change this. If anything it increases it, since that's one more thing they're trained to use with restraint.

And you're drawing an odd conclusion here Flip. Cops carrying guns do so for the same reason as the military. They are placed in situations where there is a very real possiblity they might need the gun to stay alive and accomplish their job. Firearms for them are a tool, something that they might need at some point.  Simple statistics on the US and most other Western countries with armed police forces show that the vast majority of officers never fire their weapon outside of a shooting range. This is something that most people here in the US know, even if they don't actually acknowledge it. Even if a cop is pointing a gun at you, the odds are excellent you won't get shot.

Your presentation however seems to be extending into the reason that (unfortunately) some private citizens carry guns: because they like the power. Those kind of people are a danger to everyone around them. They exist, for the most part, because they don't really grasp what it means to use a firearm on another individual. Cops do know. It's training. It's practical experience. Even in the UK, police come in contact with people (dead or alive) who have been shot on a fairly regular basis. They know what pulling that trigger will do, they understand the consequences.

As to the belief that the criminals will arm themselves in response, and will start gunfights, that's ludcrious. Weapons have an irrational effect on people, but one rather different from what you're assuming. Consider: if threatened with a knife, most people will do what they are told even if it places them in severe danger, even if they outnumber the person(s) doing the threatening greatly, even if they could unquestionably subdue the threatener(s) and probably do so without sustaining any serious injury. Arguably criminals are less apt to be frightened then normal citizens, but certainly a firearm is a considerably more frightening weapon. A single man with a loaded pistol carrying only seven shots can hold a hundred people at bay. The saying that you do not argue with someone holding a gun is a much greater truism then you give it credit for. Many, many people with loaded firearms are arrested by the police without incident. It happens daily. Perhaps they got the weapon because the cops were armed (this is highly debateable; those arrested while carrying firearms almost always have them to protect themselves against other criminals, or to use them against the same or innocents), but when it comes right down to it, they are not willing to use their firearm against a police officer. The vast majority of criminals realize that there is no defense against the police save not being found, and the thought of shooting it out doesn't even enter their minds. Yet because the UK police themselves are mostly unarmed, then surely there are a few who see their advantage over the street cop and make use of it; a few that would not do so were they faced with a loaded weapon. To make matters worse, once you have injured/killed a cop, you can expect little in the way of leniancy (at the very least, your time while remanded to custody and awaiting trial is going to be a living hell). Those who see the advantage and make use of it, when confronted by armed officers from SO19 or some other group, may well keep fighting. There will always be a few who, from foolishness or insanity, insist on fighting the police no matter what, but they are not the only problem.

The main reason the UK gets away with an unarmed police force is because the criminals are largely unarmed too. But that's changing, has perhaps already changed as you've illustrated by your story about the gang. Such an event is not particularly common here in the US, and when it does happen, while there is alarm, people in nearby neighborhoods aren't told to get inside and lock their doors. They don't have to be, because the police can and will prevent anything from happening to them. They can do this because the police are armed, and it does not take too much in the way of firepower to bring a group of people to a screeching halt. Once that task is accomplished the situation is effectively over; whatever else happens is mere punctation of the point. Yet, as your story illustrates, the police in the UK, largely unarmed, at the least do not believe they are capable of the same thing: in point of fact they probably aren't.

As you say, arming the police in the UK in response to this one incident is a kneejerk reaction. But that does not prove the conclusion that they need to be armed unsound. At the very least, the time has come for the UK to start issuing bulletproof vests on a wide scale.
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Offline Janos

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Guns are just tools with no inherent values or morality. They need someone to pull the trigger, and any moral restrain, judgement and values therefore rise from the users and their respective values.
lol wtf

 

Offline Flipside

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Thing is Ngt, cops aren't there to do the same job as the army, that is why the two are kept seperate. The prime role of the Police is to 'Keep the peace'. If Mr X and Mrs Y are having an argument of who is supposed to trim a hedge between the two houses, it's not the Police's job to say whether Mr X or Mrs Y is right. Their job is to stop that argument from spilling over.
If Mrs Y then takes the pruning shears and creates forensic history on Mr X, the Police's job is to clear up and and see to it that Mrs Y is bought before justice.
Arming Police officers is not conducive to keeping the peace. Even if a Policeman does not shoot first does not mean that the fact the Policeman is carrying a gun is not seen as justification to shoot the Policeman. This is actually the reason why most Policeman don't even want to carry guns.
Placing guns in common Police use, to me, suddenly moves the Police into the position of, as one of our more sensationalist papers stated 'Judge Dredds', enforcing, sentencing and executing, which is NOT the job of the Police, that is why the court system etc is kept seperate and distant, because justice is blind, not blind fear.
I do believe there are far far too many racial stereotypes among the Police and too many people looking for reasons to say 'We're being persecuted!' for this to work in the UK.

As for not arguing with people with guns, that's half the problem. You don't argue with gangsters with guns, you don't argue with Police with guns, it's control based on intimidation, not respect, and a slippery slope.

Actually, ever since WWII the British police have been dealing with a pretty large number of bombs, guns etc in the criminal element. We managed to deal with the IRA cells in the UK without using armed Police, they simply called in the army when needed. I don't have a problem with armed Police existing. I have a problem with all Police being armed. The theory that the number of guns in the UK is increasing is one I would actually have to look at closely, since we have had Yardies, Gangsters etc for a long long time, I have a feeling it is more a 'resurge' than an actual increase.

As for people not using guns on Police, all I'll say is more Police officers were shot in New York last year than in the UK in the last 20, so it certainly appears to me that it is the increased proliferation of guns that is causing those statistics.

It should also be bourne in mind that, whilst 13 officers have been shot in the last 20 years, nearly 5 times as many civilians have been killed by being hit by Police cars, shot by accident or from wounds injuries during arrest.

I'm not saying people would arm themselves if the Police did, most people are already armed, my problem is with this particular reaction, in the US you are made aware from a very young age of the danger of guns, you are taken to shooting ranges, you are shown images of homicides etc. In the UK, guns are still considered 'status toys' to a lot of people.

 

Offline Kosh

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Quote
A cop who shoots first and asks questions later isn't even a cop.

Quote
Bottom line: Police are trained in the use of restraint in both the United States and the UK, not in the use of force

When I was living in the US, the police there would often "shoot first and ask questions later". The Portland police had a reputation for being very "trigger happy".


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Offline FireCrack

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And a small minority just don't care, about anything at all.

That's me...
actualy, mabye not.
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Offline Prophet

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Placing guns in common Police use, to me, suddenly moves the Police into the position of, as one of our more sensationalist papers stated 'Judge Dredds', enforcing, sentencing and executing, which is NOT the job of the Police, that is why the court system etc is kept seperate and distant, because justice is blind, not blind fear.
So you think that if you are talking to your friendly unarmed "beat cop" on the street. Then I appear and give the cop a gun. He just shoots you five times in the face right there because maybe you had a rock in your pocket that, to the outside, looked like a hand granade.
Or that the police set up beach chairs on the streets. And when they are nice and confortable, they start shooting jaywalkers with a rifle 'cos it's easier than to ticket them...
Guns will not change UK in to a police state. Belive me on that. Unless...

I do believe there are far far too many racial stereotypes among the Police and too many people looking for reasons to say 'We're being persecuted!' for this to work in the UK.
...
As for not arguing with people with guns, that's half the problem. You don't argue with gangsters with guns, you don't argue with Police with guns, it's control based on intimidation, not respect, and a slippery slope.
... You really think that armed police force will turn your country in to a forced labor camp?

Actually, ever since WWII the British police have been dealing with a pretty large number of bombs, guns etc in the criminal element. We managed to deal with the IRA cells in the UK without using armed Police, they simply called in the army when needed.
...
cops aren't there to do the same job as the army, that is why the two are kept seperate. The prime role of the Police is to 'Keep the peace'.
That is true, yes. But what if the police is unable to do its job (to keep the peace), and at the same time sufficently protect themselves (and others) against dangerous criminals? You are more confortable with the army patrolling your streets rather than armed police officers?


I really, really, do not belive that people in your country are so evil and blood thirsty, that armed police force will cause the country to turn in to a warzone.
I'm not saying anything. I did not say anything then and I'm not saying anything now. -Dukath
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Offline Flipside

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1 : The first quote is actually quite poignant, since we have recently had someone shot dead for carrying a chairleg because Police thought it was a gun, so yes to No 1 ;) Not to mention the Brazillian shot dead on the underground recently.

2 : I don't think that is the intention, but yes, I do not trust our current Police selection enough to believe that these weapons would be used responsibly by enough people to make it worth while.

3 : The fact of the matter is that Guns aren't needed to do their job. Our Police actually maintain the peace pretty well, it is only in moments of kneejerk panic that they suddenly remember them.

At the moment, the Police are perfectly capable of doing their job, what convinces more than anything that they shouldn't have guns is the fact that they are silent about it for months, and sometimes years whilst people are burgled, assaulted, raped and abused and the Police are accused of being almost nonchalant about it, yet the same day as an officer gets shot, the Commissioner starts saying they need to arm the Police. I don't trust that kind of thinking.
They spent a long time giving mixed messages to people about defending their own property and wellbeing, never actually saying you were allowed to defend yourself and never giving guidelines as to what level that self-defence can go to. But once again that fog amazingly clears when it's one of their own.
The crime was a terrible one and the people deserve to be punished, but I honestly don't have enough faith in our current Police forces attitude or approach to believe that guns would help.

 

Offline Prophet

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I see... :rolleyes:
Then we shall continiue this discussion after you have kicked your cops in to the channel and rented some new ones from abroad. Yes?
I'm not saying anything. I did not say anything then and I'm not saying anything now. -Dukath
I am not breaking radio silence just cos' you lot got spooked by a dead flying ****ing cow. -Sergeant Harry Wells/Dog Soldiers


Prophet is walking in the deep dark places of the earth...

 

Offline Flipside

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Or possibly once they've been trained a little better and convinced the public that they actually need more guns than their current SO19 setup.