Author Topic: Plasma drive test successful  (Read 2148 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline pyro-manic

  • Flambé
  • 210
Plasma drive test successful
New ion engine design developed by ESA works in initial tests: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4527696.stm
Any fool can pull a trigger...

 

Offline Corsair

  • Gull Wings Rule
  • 29
Re: Plasma drive test successful
veeeeeery interesting...
Wash: This landing's gonna get pretty interesting.
Mal: Define "interesting".
Wash: *shrug* "Oh God, oh God, we're all gonna die"?
Mal: This is the captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and then... explode.

 

Offline Fineus

  • ...But you *have* heard of me.
  • Administrator
  • 212
    • Hard Light Productions
Re: Plasma drive test successful
Oh sweet...

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
Re: Plasma drive test successful
Yup, Ion drives have been playing a small role in space exploration for while :)

They aren't actually more powerful than normal engines or anything, but stay functional for much much longer. They could be very useful for in-system exploration, however :)

 

Offline achtung

  • Friendly Neighborhood Mirror Guy
  • 210
  • ****in' Ace
    • Freespacemods.net
Re: Plasma drive test successful
Anything more efficient than rockets is better.  :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: December 14, 2005, 09:40:05 pm by Swantz »
FreeSpaceMods.net | FatHax | ??????
In the wise words of Charles de Gaulle, "China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."

Formerly known as Swantz

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
Re: Plasma drive test successful
I think conventional rocket boosters would still be needed to escape Earths atmosphere though. I'd say we could save around 90% of the money spent on Space Exploration if we could get over that one hurdle.

 

Offline knn

  • 28
Re: Plasma drive test successful
I think conventional rocket boosters would still be needed to escape Earths atmosphere though. I'd say we could save around 90% of the money spent on Space Exploration if we could get over that one hurdle.

We need orbital shipyards. Imagine an Orion built on Earth and launched using rockets :shaking:
"Don't try to be a great man, just be a man and let history make its own judgments." -- Zefram Cochrane

 

Offline StratComm

  • The POFressor
  • 212
  • Cameron Crazy
    • http://www.geocities.com/cek_83/index.html
Re: Plasma drive test successful
There's still the small matter of getting either materials or just raw manpower up.  Even with a system like a space elevator, that still takes a ton of energy.

Also, ion engines really shine in truely long-range exploration; because the exhaust is more energetic, a craft can accelerate to higher velocities (even if it takes longer to get up to speed) than one using conventional rocket engines.  Not FTL by any means, but the fundamental limits of conventional rockets in terms of just raw speed are a lot lower than most people think.
who needs a signature? ;)
It's not much of an excuse for a website, but my stuff can be found here

"Holding the last thread on a page comes with an inherent danger, especially when you are edit-happy with your posts.  For you can easily continue editing in points without ever noticing that someone else could have refuted them." ~Me, on my posting behavior

Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Nuke

  • Ka-Boom!
  • 212
  • Mutants Worship Me
Re: Plasma drive test successful
rockets require mass to generate energy, with ion engines a majority of the thrust power comes from electricity generated by solar arrays, rather than fuel. you send out less mass but at a much higher velocity. if you can figure out how to convert electrical energy directly into motion, then you could pretty much explore space for free, minus the cost of leaving earth orbit and equipment obviously. we need to make probes that can be used for many missions rather than just one. ion engines get us closer to that goal. i really think solar sails need to be tested and used. last i recall the last time it was to be tested the rocket blew up. lets not let it ride a russian rocket next time. :D
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN

 
Re: Plasma drive test successful
Quote
There's still the small matter of getting either materials or just raw manpower up.  Even with a system like a space elevator, that still takes a ton of energy.

Asteriod mining+self-sustaining habitat+orbital shipyard=exploration ;7

Almost seems like it's the tutorial level for some space-based RTS.

 

Offline Flaser

  • 210
  • man/fish warsie
Re: Plasma drive test successful
OK.
I usually don't bash anyone if I can help it, but this time.....CUT THE CRAP!

That said and done, I better go about giving a scientifically accurate description of what's great about an ion engine, and what's even better about this one.
In space any prolusion system other than a solar sail and its ilk has to rely on Newton's 3rd law to provide thrust:
You push thing out, meanwhile you're pushed in the opposite direction. No exceptions.

The rocket's motion equation:

FR = d(M*v) / dt = M * a
FE = d(mt * c) / dt

IF a || c THEN:

FT = c * mt

Legend:
FR : The force that is pushing the rocket
FE : The force that is pusching the exhaust
FT : The force of the Throttle
M : Full mass of the rocket, INCLUDING(!) the fuel onboard at the moment
mt: The mass of exhaust expelled under a unit of time (dm/dt)
v : velocity of the rocket
c : velocity of the exhaust
a : acceleration
t  : time
d/dt : Derivating by time
underline : vector

For the less geek among us, the most important equation is the last one:

FT = c * mb

The force of the rocket engine is the ammount of exhaust it expells multiplied by the speed of the exhaust.
For getting into orbit you need a lot of force.
You need to defeat gravity and when your rocket is several hundred tons, accelerating all of that by more than 9.8 meter/second2, needs a damn lot of trust.

To get more thrust you either increase the exhause speed, or the exhaust ammount. The problem lies in the fact that to c - exthaust speed is constant for a given chemical reaction, so to gain more thrust you dump more and more fuel (= some flamable, lots of oxydiser) into the rocket engine.

c - is also often called specific impulse. It tells how much thrust a single unit of exthaust gives.
Since c is fixed for chemcial rockets, it dictates how much fuel you need to burn to achieve the desired thrust.
Hence it can be though of as the milage of the fuel. The higher the better.

Delta-v
However once in orbit, thrust isn't importnat. Delta-v is.
The easiest method how I can explain what delta-v is, is through Newton's second law:

dFdt = d(m * v) / dt
dv/dt = dF / dm 

You're probably familiar with this law from Highschool in the following form:

F = m * a = m * v / t
F * t = m * v : This is the equation that's relevant here

Legend:

F : Force
m : mass
a : acceleration
v : velocity
t : time

F * t is the push the rocket gives over a period of time.  m * v is the ammount of kinetic energy the ship gained.
No matter how strong the engine is, going from point A to point B in the solar system will need a given ammound of kinetic energy that equals the work of the Sun's gravity field over the same course.

When you actually take into account that rockets burn fuel (and ergo have less and less mass) you get the following equation for delta-v:

Rocket 101 Mass Basics

M = M0 + mb + mc

r = M / M - mb
p = M / M0

M : Full Mass
M0 : ordenance, payload mass
mb : mass of fuel
mc : structural mass or M - M0 - mb
p: useful mass rating
r : simple mass rating

The rocket's basic motion equation - Part 2:

(m-dm) * dv = - c * dm 

- c since the rocket goes in the opposite direction than the exthaust

dv = - c *dm / (m - dm)

m >> dm

dv= - c * dm / m

Legend:

m : rocket's mass at the moment
v : rocket's velocity
c : exthauset velocity

The rocket's motion equation - Part 3:

v - v0 = - c * ln[m]mM = c * ln(M/m)

At burnout

v - v0 =c* ln(M/M-mb) = c * ln(r)

vmax = v0 + c * ln(r)

Legend:

v0 : starting velocity (For liftoff = 0, previous maxspeed for each further stage)
vmax : the rocket's maximum velocity at burnout

vmax = v0 + c * ln(r)

That's the most important equation for any mission design.
The maximum speed of the rocket we can impart onto the rocket is only dependant on the exthaust speed and the ammount of fuel it carries in relation to its own structural mass.
Max speed, translates to delta-v - the equivalent of mission range in the Solar system.
Ergo for long range, or just plain interplanetary missions you need either gigantic ammountof fuel or a high c.

FT = c * mt
max = v0 + c * ln(r)

Ion Engine

How does the ion engine fit into all of this?

In the ion engine you're accelerating ions in an electric field. (The only reason we use ions is that in order to use an electric field you need particles with charge, hence the ions. We usually use positive ions, and dangle an anode into the ionstream to get rid of the negative charge build up - if left unattended the charge differential between our rocket and the exhaust would eventually stop us. Since electrons carry the same charge as a proton but are a thousand times lighter, the loss of momentum is neligible.)
The field can accelerate ions close to lighspeed.
With c = 300.000.000 m / s the milage on an ion engine is pretty impressive.

So why don't we use it to lift our thousand ton spacebattleships off the ground?
Structural engineering limits: we can't dump enough fuel into the engine to create the necessary thrust for a liftoff.
Namely the ions in the acceleration array slowly nick at it - eating it from the inside out.

The wonderful thing about this plasma based ion engine is, that the acceleration array itself is made of plasma - no solid parts that the ions could destroy.
Granted our understanding of plamsa flow dynamics is still very limited, however this engine can output a lot more ions and as a result a greater thrust than.

So in the future, we may use ion engines for liftoff - however why do we bother with it on space probes and so on if its so weak in terms of thrust?

Remember this?

vmax = v0 + c * ln(r)

With c = 300.000.000 m/s it means we can employ probes with minimal ammount of fuel on long range missions.
Granted it still takes a chemical rocket to get it all in orbit, but once there, the ion engine is the choice of engine for high delta-v missions.

EDIT: miswrote an equation.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2005, 01:26:37 pm by Flaser »
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline Shade

  • 211
Re: Plasma drive test successful
Very nice overview, and yeah it's definitely important to keep in mind that this isn't going to help us get off the planet, it'll just help us go further once we're already up there. Being a bit of a geek about these things myself, I've got to point out one thing you didn't mention: Energy efficiency.

As the fuel efficiency goes up with a higher delta-v, energy efficiency does the opposite; while an exhaust velocity of near light speed is theoretically possible, you'd need to haul a nuclear power plant along for the ride to provide the juice to run the thing. I'm not sure of the exact numbers without looking it up, but the energy requirement increases exponentially with the delta-v, not linearly.

This is why current ion drives are run at a relatively modest delta-v (for that technology at least) of 20.000ish, as this can be achieved by more feasible means like radioisotope generators or even solar cells like on the SMART-1 probe.

So what this advance can do for us with the power options available to us today is probably not a massive increase in  thrust, though certainly some will come from the greater efficiency over regular ion thrusters, but a massive increase in lifespan and reliability as it's not continually destroying itself while operating :) We can just hope that power generation will one day allow these drives to truely come into their own and provide both high thrust and massive lifespan, after which we can be off for the stars :D

Ohh, and first post too! Such a geek am I it wasn't even in a freespace related topic  :(  Well, next time... next time
Report FS_Open bugs with Mantis  |  Find the latest FS_Open builds Here  |  Interested in FRED? Check out the Wiki's FRED Portal | Diaspora: Website / Forums
"Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh ****ing great. 2200 references to entry->index and no idea which is the one that ****ed up" - Karajorma
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct." - Niels Bohr
<Cobra|> You play this mission too intelligently.

  

Offline Flaser

  • 210
  • man/fish warsie
Re: Plasma drive test successful
Very nice overview, and yeah it's definitely important to keep in mind that this isn't going to help us get off the planet, it'll just help us go further once we're already up there. Being a bit of a geek about these things myself, I've got to point out one thing you didn't mention: Energy efficiency.

As the fuel efficiency goes up with a higher delta-v, energy efficiency does the opposite; while an exhaust velocity of near light speed is theoretically possible, you'd need to haul a nuclear power plant along for the ride to provide the juice to run the thing. I'm not sure of the exact numbers without looking it up, but the energy requirement increases exponentially with the delta-v, not linearly.

This is why current ion drives are run at a relatively modest delta-v (for that technology at least) of 20.000ish, as this can be achieved by more feasible means like radioisotope generators or even solar cells like on the SMART-1 probe.

So what this advance can do for us with the power options available to us today is probably not a massive increase in  thrust, though certainly some will come from the greater efficiency over regular ion thrusters, but a massive increase in lifespan and reliability as it's not continually destroying itself while operating :) We can just hope that power generation will one day allow these drives to truely come into their own and provide both high thrust and massive lifespan, after which we can be off for the stars :D

Ohh, and first post too! Such a geek am I it wasn't even in a freespace related topic  :(  Well, next time... next time

I'm afraid that you misunderstood the meaning of delta-v.
In space deployment, delta-v doesn't measures speed, it more like an equivalent of the distances we can cover.

If you substitute delta-v in your post though with c - specific impulse, it makes perfect sense.
With higher specific impulse fuel efficiency increases, though energy consumption goes through the rough....which is actually a good thing, as we take the most of the fuel.
The problem you mention isn't with the energy demand itself - it's once again an engineering problem - though truth be told IIRC NASA's new Jupite probe will have a fission reactor onboard.

You were definitly spot on though about lightspeed fast specific impulse - it's theoreticly possible, just not likely to happen due its engineering demands.

The bottomline is: the thing in constant critical demand on a rocket is always the propellant - hence the need to bring the most out of each gramm of it.
This translates to the need for high specific impulse engines.
The energy demand do is not that problematic, in Mars orbit and inside solarcells are sufficient while in deeper space mission isotope sources or maybe in the near future fission reactors can be used.

Nuclear engines are the other great stalwart in our search for better rockets. The basic technology is actually already researched and ready to deploy.
Their potential environment impact though prevents that, and they will most likely see their use only in pure-space missions.
There are several fission designs from the early solid core NERVA with realiably but short lifespan, through the numerous gas phased NERVA alteranatives, with a better long term usability, to exotic designs that use fissioning materail as their propellant.
The actual mechanics behind the nuclear engine are simple - swap out the reaction chamber and put in a reactor. Pass the propellant through the reactor and its heat will accelerate it just the same as an exotherm chemical reaction would.
Figuring out plamsa physics though could mean the end of the radioactive fission nightmare, as a fusion reactor could do the very same job, with a fraction of the nuclear concerns.
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
Re: Plasma drive test successful
Heh, I remember when the height of our space exploration hopes was the Bussard Ramjet ;)

 

Offline Nuke

  • Ka-Boom!
  • 212
  • Mutants Worship Me
Re: Plasma drive test successful
Heh, I remember when the height of our space exploration hopes was the Bussard Ramjet ;)

yea that would be cool :D
you could in theory circumnavigate the universe in 50 years, assuming einstein's equation was correct. of course you would come back and find the sun had gone nova.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN

 

Offline Flaser

  • 210
  • man/fish warsie
Re: Plasma drive test successful
Heh, I remember when the height of our space exploration hopes was the Bussard Ramjet ;)

Airbreathing Surface to Orbit Systems are a very likely and not to mention economic solution to the gravity of our situation.
You may want to check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SABRE
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline Nuke

  • Ka-Boom!
  • 212
  • Mutants Worship Me
Re: Plasma drive test successful
Heh, I remember when the height of our space exploration hopes was the Bussard Ramjet ;)

Airbreathing Surface to Orbit Systems are a very likely and not to mention economic solution to the gravity of our situation.
You may want to check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SABRE
somone hasnt seen cosmos :D
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
Re: Plasma drive test successful
Heh, I find the odds of Flaser knowing as much as he does about space exploration and not having seen Cosmos infinitely small ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet

The basic theory is the same, and Air-fed Ramjet technology also has a good environmental promise as well, it puts out an absolutely minute amount of pollution when compared to the shuttle.

 

Offline Kosh

  • A year behind what's funny
  • 210
Re: Plasma drive test successful
*yawn* wake me when we invent warp drive or hyperspace jump engines
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

Brain I/O error
Replace and press any key

 

Offline StratComm

  • The POFressor
  • 212
  • Cameron Crazy
    • http://www.geocities.com/cek_83/index.html
Re: Plasma drive test successful
*waves goodnight to Kosh... since he's going to be out for a while*
who needs a signature? ;)
It's not much of an excuse for a website, but my stuff can be found here

"Holding the last thread on a page comes with an inherent danger, especially when you are edit-happy with your posts.  For you can easily continue editing in points without ever noticing that someone else could have refuted them." ~Me, on my posting behavior

Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM