[Kazan]

 

Originally posted by Stryke 9:
A spontaneously combusting bush could exist just as logically if there's a god as a magnet can lift a paperclip whether there ids or isn't. Think about it.

my point exactly

there is a bush that has a very oily sap that can spontaneously combust without consuming the plant (son of it seeps out... concentraits...)

All these things they take a proof are explainable - if not now eventually.  You cannot attribute something you cannot explain to a deity - that is intellectual sloth

[Stryke 9]

Ugh. I retract my statement. If Kazan can claim he wasn't flaming with a straight face, I could convince myself of same. To paraphrase a famous repulsive Republican, I hope to set an example by retiring from this topic!

[Kazan]

perhaps you misunderstand being honest with flaming

two greatly different things


Just sometimes honesty isn't nice and watered down with being politically correct

[Stryke 9]

I didn't mean that you did it intentionally... But yo were a little more agressive than is ever acceptable for such a topic... think Jerry Fallwell. I was saying that if you weren't intentionally flaming, I must be unintentionally doing so as well. And you don't have to be PC (I make a point of never being when it inconveniences me... which is nearly always) to follow common human courtesies... such as treating humans as such. That rebuttal completed, I will one again attempt to abandon this topic to the vultures and proselytizers (sp?).

[Anduril]

I don't want to get on anyone's case here...but Kazan, you're being pretty aggressive. I'm pretty annoyed at the fact that you made SIX consecutive posts...consolidate them, for crying out loud!

This is a dangerous topic...I was suprised to see it last a whole day, but I agree with Jabu that if you have a problem with religion, don't discuss it! Ignore the thread! If religion offends you, don't talk about it! Nobody makes you read this thread. Just don't argue about it. You'll just cause bad feelings with those of us who do have some sort of faith, and that kind of argument is completely nonproductive. If you want to present an atheist viewpoint, do it respectfully! I don't want to pick on Kazan, but "stick your religion up your arse" and "I shoot evangelists" and "your brain is poisoned" and a dozen more do NOT impress me as respectful OR reasonable discussion.
Just reread Maeglamor's comment(putting the boot down)...agree 100%.

Not that I think it will change the way certian people respond to this topic...

As for my opinion on religion, my beliefs are based on exercising faith, and having it justified again and again...let's just say that I know for myself, and that I have more than enough evidence.

[Sandwich]

I hope to bring this topic from the "talking about having a reasoned discussion about religon" stage to the "having a reasoned discussion about religon" stage. So:

Kazan: I can see your POV, and in some ways I agree with it. Religious people can get extremely "in-your-face" and pushy with what they believe is "right". Believe me, I face it a lot here in Israel - probably more than anyone else on these boards.

Speaking personally, I do not consider myself religious. I have a faith in God, that He created all things, etc etc. I have no absolute, scientific proof; if I did, it wouldn't be faith, would it?

But when I look at virtually anything in the world and universe around us, I see evidence of a Creator. The complexities of the human body (and here I think you would agree with me) are far to intricate for evolution. The "million monkeys on a million typewriters" analogy.

Speaking personally again: I do not go out to the streets and evangelize. It's just not "me". But what I do do is try to set examples to those around me. When I was in the IDF reserves a month ago, soilders would start asking me where I came from (originally the US), why the heck I was here instead of safely back in the States (this was b4 the WTC attacks), etc. I told them that I believe in the Bible, and that God's chosen people are the Jewish people, adn that I believed this with all my heart even though I was (to them) a "Christian".

But that did not touch them nearly as much as the simple fact that I was serving alongside them, risking my life for this tiny Jewish nation. And they came out and said so to my face a couple of times.

That is what my faith is.

Any questions?  

------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar, the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)

[This message has been edited by sandwich (edited 09-24-2001).]

[Setekh]

 

Originally posted by Kazan:
Rampage: take your religion and stick it up your arse

 

Originally posted by Kazan:
im not flaming.. you haven't seen me flaming

Right.

*shrugs* I thought you were within reason Kazan, and I tried to convince the other HLP staffers of the same once upon a time, reserving my judgement. I'm still going to reserve my judgement, but I'm no longer going to reserve anyone else's.

[Kazan]

nor did I ask you to setekh... people's judgement should be "Kazan finds religion repulsive" - generally what was the message i was trying to get across.

[Styxx]

Teehee! Religion topic, yay!  

Heh, this is turning out just the way it's expected to...  


As for my own opinion, I'd like to quote a bumper sticker I saw some time back on a random car - one that I'd gladly put on my own car if I found it:

"It's not like I'm religious, but God rules!"

[Nico]

 

Originally posted by Styxx:
Heh, this is turning out just the way it's expected to...  

And not only in forums actually.

[Jabu]

 

[Nico]

 

Originally posted by Jabu:
   

 

[Top Gun]

 http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/contra.html  http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/tcont.htm  http://www.atheists.org/church/contradictions.html  http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7273/biblicalcontradictions.html

Here's a list of a few websites that point out the Contradictions in the Bible - Courtesy of Jabu (He postend them in a Warpstorm thread) It saves people like Kazan Stryke 9 and a few others explaining them to the ignorant religious people amongst us who are probably going to ignore them as they have done to a lot of other obvious or proven things.

[This message has been edited by Top Gun (edited 09-24-2001).]

[Sandwich]

About those contradictions: I have not read them all, not do I plan on responding to them all. One did catch my eye, however:

Thou shalt not kill.

That is a mistranslation from the original. The Hebrew states: "Lo tirtzach". "Lo" = no, negative, etc. "Tirtzach" is from the root word "Retzach", which is "murder".

I know that there are many other points in those pages. Bring 'em up one at a time and I'll try to answer.

I actually am looking forward to this - it's a good challenge.  

------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar, the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)

[Crazy_Ivan80]

 

Originally posted by Kazan:

oh contrar monfrair

deleted rest of post because there's nothing wrong with it...
the Frech should be : 'à contraire mon frère' or something like that (french is rusty, as it should be)  

[Nico]

 

Originally posted by Kazan:
I think like nietzsche (and now that i read him i find how much i think like him).

Don't claim it too loud. Nietzche was brilliant, but he also inspired Hitler. Not his fault, ok, but some ideas of his own are... well, wrong in today' standards.

[Joey_21]

 

Originally posted by Kazan:

oh contrar monfrair

you are the persecutor, throughout history

We're screaming because your ignorance does us pain - we're bucking at your persecution of the intelligent peoples of this planet

Right...  

[Nico]

 

Originally posted by Kazan:

oh contrar monfrair

Huh? Oh my god (if I can allow myself  )

[Anduril]

The problem with those contradiction lists is that they are taken completely out of context...for example:

ON DEALING WITH PERSONAL INJURY
"...thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. " -- Exodus 21:23-25

"...ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." -- Matthew 5:39  

The first statement is part of the Law of Moses, given to the Israelites after they failed at trying to live the higher law. The higher law of "turning the other cheek" was reestablished by Christ, and if you read the new testament completely, he states that the new law supercedes the old one.

ON CIRCUMCISION
"This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised." -- Genesis 17:10

"...if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." -- Galatians 5:2  

The same thing here...when Christ came and fulfilled his purpose through the atonement, he fulfilled the Law of Moses, which included the law of circumsision...so circumsision was no longer necessary, and no longer mattered.

I can respond to a lot more of these, like Sandwich I think they will make an interesting exercise.   Only if people really want answers, though...I'm not going to give myself a wrist injury typing out stuff nobody will read.  

By the way, I consider myself extremely religious, but I have no problem with "proof." I stand confident that any APPARENT contradiction can be explained, and whether or not I can figure it out now, I will someday. If there is a God who is all-powerful, how can mere mortals like us claim to have "proof" that contradicts him? If there isn't than fine, but I believe there is.

As for Occams Razor, I actually think that it SUPPORTS the idea of a supreme being...you really think that all this happening by accident is SIMPLER than there being a creator?

Just more of my thoughts.  
-Anduril

[Anduril]

The problem with those contradiction lists is that they are taken completely out of context...for example:

ON DEALING WITH PERSONAL INJURY
"...thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. " -- Exodus 21:23-25

"...ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." -- Matthew 5:39

The first statement is part of the Law of Moses, given to the Israelites after they failed at trying to live the higher law. The higher law of "turning the other cheek" was reestablished by Christ, and if you read the new testament completely, he states that the new law supercedes the old one.

ON CIRCUMCISION
"This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised." -- Genesis 17:10

"...if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." -- Galatians 5:2  

The same thing here...when Christ came and fulfilled his purpose through the atonement, he fulfilled the Law of Moses, which included the law of circumsision...so circumsision was no longer necessary, and no longer mattered.

I can respond to a lot more of these, like Sandwich I think they will make an interesting exercise.   Only if people really want answers, though...I'm not going to give myself a wrist injury typing out stuff nobody will read.  

By the way, I consider myself extremely religious, but I have no problem with "proof." I stand confident that any APPARENT contradiction can be explained, and whether or not I can figure it out now, I will someday. If there is a God who is all-powerful, how can mere mortals like us claim to have "proof" that contradicts him? If there isn't than fine, but I believe there is.

As for Occams Razor, I actually think that it SUPPORTS the idea of a supreme being...you really think that all this happening by accident is SIMPLER than there being a creator?


One more thing on contradiction finding- you can create falsehoods out of nothing, but truth is something that can be neither created nor destroyed. If you can find an element of truth, and be completely secure about it, then no number of apparent falsehoods can prove that truth wrong.
For millenia, just about everyone thought the sun revolved around the earth...until we gained a better perspective and found out the truth. We can play this game for years, pointing out apparent contradictions and apparent solutions...but really the only way to solve it in your own mind is to find out for yourself if God exists, and establish the truth for yourself.

Just more of my thoughts...sorry if they're a bit scattered.  
-Anduril


[This message has been edited by Anduril (edited 09-24-2001).]