[Sandwich]

Have any of you people in the West and Europe heard anything about what's been happening in Israel recently? I've heard that you're being kept in the dark, so I wanted to find out firsthand if that was true.

The US has been pressuring Ariel Sharon to allow our Foreign Minister, Peres, to meet with Yasser Arafat. Sharon said that he's willing to allow such a meeting on the condition that there be 48 hours without terrorist attacks. Arafat has said twice that he's declared a cease fire since then.

But since that announcement, two wives have been shot dead since Thursday while driving with their families on the roads.  

Is this a cease-fire? Is there any reason for Israel to negotiate with Arafat? Is there any reason for the US to negotiate with Bin-Laden? Is the terrorisim here any different then the terrorisim in the rest of the world?!  

Have any of you heard anything about this stuff?

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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

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[Nico]

yes, in france they've talked about it.

[DragonClaw]

no

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    -Director of the staff of Hidden Terror.
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The fear always controls our attitude, let us fear no more!

[Shrike]

The problem with that kind of proclamation is that could very well have been some teen who got dumped by his gf or something, and decided to shoot an isreali 'oppressor'.  Look at Ireland.... as soon as the main party gets a sort of peace, a radical fringe takes up the banner.  The way I see it, (and I'm sorry if it offends you) if the Isrealis keep trying for an 'all or nothing' peace deal, they're going to get exactly nowhere.  You have to start somewhere, and they are not letting that start happen by demanding too much off the bat.

[Kellan]

Yeah, we heard about it too. Although it's clear that some Palestinian groups don't want peace with Israel, there's nothing to say that this is the opinion of all of them. After all, it was Arafat that decalred the unlateral ceasefire first last week, I believe.

If you accuse all Palestinians of being supportive of this terrorism you risk falling into the trap of accusing all Afghans, or all Muslims of the attacks on the World Trade Center. Clearly this is absurd, and I see no reason why the situation you're referring to is any different.

True enough that Arafat has to be expected to come down hard on terrorism from within 'his' ranks, but it's been clear for some time that some do not support his views and will not recognise him as their leader. Better to treat them as a seperate faction, but in dealing with them the IDF is sure to incur the wrath of other Palestinians.  

Sigh...still, maybe America can wade in and sort this one out as part of its assault on terrorism.

[Stryke 9]

Actually, Arafat is technically powerless, and I DO believe he wants to negotiate somewhat. The problem is that he has no way to enforce anything, and he is only "in power" by the will of the Palestinian extremists (the non-extremist majority gets little/no say and appears to be a dying race). He says whatever he thinks will keep him moderately popular on the home front without provoking a war. I don't think anyone else could do his job quite so well, and in any case if he wasn't there to serve as a semi-compromiser, then both sides would lon ago begun REALLY having at each other- which would result in the rapid extermination of the Palestinians followed immediately by most of the Middle East jumping on Israel and pounding it to smoking bits- He may be an insignificance, but he's the pinhead a quarter of the world balances on, and you have to respect whoever holds that job.

[Kazan]

first credible report of media bias and underreporting

no i didn't hear... grr that angers me

[Stryke 9]

Hardly the first... maybe the first one you believed for this particular instance... but far, far from the first.

[Sandwich]

 

Originally posted by Shrike:
The problem with that kind of proclamation is that could very well have been some teen who got dumped by his gf or something, and decided to shoot an isreali 'oppressor'.  Look at Ireland.... as soon as the main party gets a sort of peace, a radical fringe takes up the banner.  The way I see it, (and I'm sorry if it offends you) if the Isrealis keep trying for an 'all or nothing' peace deal, they're going to get exactly nowhere.  You have to start somewhere, and they are not letting that start happen by demanding too much off the bat.

I agree with what you're saying 100% - it doesn't offend me in the least. But look at the other side of the coin: Arafat (in the world's hearing) calls for a cease-fire. He may or may not have called for a cease-fire in Arabic, which is what really counts.

If he has, then it means that he's no longer in control of his people, and something needs to be done to either bring those wild factions under control, or to remove them from the picture.

If he hasn't called for a cease-fire in Arabic, then he's just sucking up to what the world wants to hear. And yes, it's happend before.

One other thing that ticks me off is the casualties reports concerning the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. This is of course a generalization, but it is true in the majority of cases: the Palestinians that have been killed were either participating in violent protests or actually contibuting to live-fire gun battles. The Israelis that have been killed have been driving to/from work, eating at a pizza parlor, sitting in their living room, riding the bus. See what I'm getting at?



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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar, the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)

[Joey_21]

The only thing we're going to discuss with bin laden is how he wants to be executed.  

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[Sandwich]

 

Originally posted by Joey_21:
The only thing we're going to discuss with bin laden is how he wants to be executed.  

And no one in their right mind in the States would have any dispute over that statement. But if the same was said about Arafat...    



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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar, the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)

[IceFire]

 

If he has, then it means that he's no longer in control of his people, and something needs to be done to either bring those wild factions under control, or to remove them from the picture.

Nobody is ever completely incontrol of his or her 'people'.  Sure President Bush comands the United States, but does that stop people from murdering each other or making racist attacks against minority groups who had nothing to do with the WTC destruction?

Is Mr. Sharon in control of every single Israeli in Israel?  No.  Thats not something that should be expected of any leader to that extent.

Unfortunately sandwich, the media here in Canada and the United States is definately focused on what has happened here at home and little else has been in the spotlight.  And its not just one issue being ignored, everything else not related to the September 11th attack is pretty much ignored...and can you blame the public and the media for that?  Probably not.

The situation in Israel is one that has been going on for decades if not centuries and its not one that can just be solved by the snap of the fingers or the word of a leader.

I really hope that the final outcome of all of this (all of these varying conflicts) is a better world in which everyone can live in.  Regardless of the faith and regardless of the belief.  I'm an optomist so forgive me for having some hope...but then again...isn't that all we have?

[Stryke 9]

Cynicism and the knowledge that I'm right do it for me.

[Sandwich]

No, I cannot blame the media for focusing on the matters pertaining to the September 11th attacks. Not at all. But this is the reason I brought this up: this lack of reporting the full facts about the situation over here is a constant in the media. It happens consistently, not just when there are more "interesting" or "important" stories to be told.

But also, do you realize what that new line in my siggy truly means? That these terror attacks which have galvanized a good portion of the world into counter-terrorisim actions, are par for the course in Israel, albeit on a lesser scale? We have to go through this s**t of worrying about loved ones, having bags checked not only at the entrances to malls but when entering coffee bars and restaurants, reporting every single suspicious object to the police, living in a state of siege constantly.

We understand how you feel, America - we truly do. But now do you understand how we live?!

 

Originally posted by IceFire:
Is Mr. Sharon in control of every single Israeli in Israel? No. Thats not something that should be expected of any leader to that extent.

If Israelis took matters into their own hands, you can bet that the Israeli Govt would intervene. It has happened in the recent past.

 

Originally posted by IceFire:
Nobody is ever completely incontrol of his or her 'people'.  Sure President Bush comands the United States, but does that stop people from murdering each other or making racist attacks against minority groups who had nothing to do with the WTC destruction?

If there were daily attacks - often fatal -on Canadians, both in Canada and those travelling to the US, by Americans, you'd better bet your booties that Bush'd show exactly how much "control" he has over those rouge factions!

Israelis still kill each other, both accidentally on the roads and on purpose in fights. So do Americans. So do Canadians. But if there were mortars fired from American soil that were exploding on Toronto, wouldn't you expect and demand that the US Govt. take action to reign in those responsible? Or even worse, if it was the US president who ordered the attacks, and who then ordered a cease-fire in order to hold negotiations, but Canadians kept getting killed... all I ask is:

What would you do?



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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar, the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)

[Anduril]

I feel for you, sandwich...I hope that Bush remains true to his word and works to fight terrorism everywhere- including Israel. It's been a problem there for a long time, and we COULD have tried to do something about it...but for various reasons, many political, we didn't. I hope we help however we can now.

I hadn't heard the particular story you were mentioning at the beginning of the thread, but I WAS aware of the fact that the Israelis were getting reported as if they were being the bullies in the various skirmishes, and knew it to be false...a lot of people do!

[Shrike]

 

Originally posted by sandwich:
But also, do you realize what that new line in my siggy truly means? That these terror attacks which have galvanized a good portion of the world into counter-terrorisim actions, are par for the course in Israel, albeit on a lesser scale? We have to go through this s**t of worrying about loved ones, having bags checked not only at the entrances to malls but when entering coffee bars and restaurants, reporting every single suspicious object to the police, living in a state of siege constantly.

I have problems with this though.  One cannot easily compare constant low level 'indigenous' terrorism with massive attacks like the 9-11 one.  As I stated above, many of the former could simply be caused by spur-of-the-moment feelings of anger, etc.  Have a bad day?  Throw a rock at an Isreali.  You don't have a bad day and convince three other friends to each fly airliners into building.  Again, come back to Ireland, the violence is continuing because both sides cannot really seem live with each other.  Familiarity breeding contempt and all that.

What you can compare it to have been the wars involving Isreal, where external forces have attacked (and ended up with the ****  knocked out by) Isreal.

[This message has been edited by Shrike (edited 09-24-2001).]

[Carl]

some people are just plain evil and will just keep doing evil things no matter what happens. Arafat will not give up until there is not one Isreali left alife on earth, and bin Laden will not give up until there is not one capatalist -american or not- left on earth. and after that they will find something new to do that won't be any better.

[Anduril]

Wrong Carl...they won't have to find a new target, because they will both fail.

[Sandwich]

 

Originally posted by Shrike:
I have problems with this though.  One cannot easily compare constant low level 'indigenous' terrorism with massive attacks like the 9-11 one.

It was a statement like that that got the French Ambassador(I think..., maybe it was the Foreign Minister) politically blasted.

The scale of the terrorist attack on the 11th is too large for the mind to grasp, most definetly. It was a well-thought out, premeditated attack on the United States.

But people don't just decide to become suicide bombers because they had a bad day. The Palestinian Authority is indoctrinating the children with terrorist propaganda. They are encouraged to blow themselves up to kill Jews, etc. If you want links about this, let me know - there's no lack.

The other difference is that when Israel strikes back at terrorists, we get blasted by the world as being overbearing and using our powerful army to kill gun-weilding "freedom fighters". But when the US moves half of it's army, navy and air force into the Indian Ocean and the Persian Gulf in response to the attack upon her, not only does the world agree - they want to join! Good for them, but why the double-standard?

And then this anti-terrorisim coalition invites countries like Iran and Syria to join!? And Israel, which was invited to participate, is all of a sudden kicked out? Does something in this seem a bit screwy to you?

With all due respect, Shrike - don't give me this "low-level indigenous terrorisim" crap. Tell that to the blind and deaf - or to the dead.

Terrorisim is terrorisim. Period.

EDIT: I know I came across quite strong on this. I meant to. But if I in some way offended anyone, forgive me - that is most definetly not my intention.

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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar, the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)

[This message has been edited by sandwich (edited 09-25-2001).]

[Pez]

The press in Sweden have reported about the cease fire.

Sandvich can you bring some light about why Israeli forces invaded Jenin and Jerico. I also read that they have been bombing Gaza, Ramallah, Beit Sahour and Beit Jala. Is this true?

Pez