[IceFire]

 

The other difference is that when Israel strikes back at terrorists, we get blasted by the world as being overbearing and using our powerful army to kill gun-weilding "freedom fighters". But when the US moves half of it's army, navy and air force into the Indian Ocean and the Persian Gulf in response to the attack upon her, not only does the world agree - they want to join! Good for them, but why the double-standard?

Lets be honest, most people live a double standard every day of their lives.  Thats nothing new.  

I definately understand (in one sense of the world although probably not in others - im not in your situation) what your point is and what you are getting at.  

I've done a significant amount of research into Terrorism in the Middle East in general.  It was a independant study project that I ended up spending almost 40 minutes in class presenting when it was done.  Its a difficult situation, its hard to deal with continual threats of violence and while you can't compare the daily minor attacks compaired to the massive singular attack on September 11th, the overall picture is that people are dying and be it 50 people in a crowded marketplace in Israel somewhere or 6,000 people in New York City, it simply isn't tolerable.

The main problem is that there is no good answer or solution to any of these problems.  There are legitimate reasons for disagreement in Israel and there are legitimate greivances against the United States, but none of it justifies what is happening.

And yet it does and we again, have to hope that someone does something right.

[aldo_14]

 

Originally posted by Joey_21:
The only thing we're going to discuss with bin laden is how he wants to be executed.  

If you kill him you make him a martyr... better to lock him up and leave him to rot... and opur (UK) foreign secretary hasn;t done much to help Israeli-Uk relations recently.

[Shrike]

 

Originally posted by sandwich:
With all due respect, Shrike - don't give me this "low-level indigenous terrorisim" crap. Tell that to the blind and deaf - or to the dead.

Terrorisim is terrorisim. Period.

And this is the problem Isreal has.  When it comes to matters like this, they refuse to acknowledge that anyone else has a valid opinion, and as soon as someone says something they find even the tiniest bit disagreeable, they lash out.  Apparently some reasonably important guy (Shaw?) who's visiting Isreal has just had his visit with Sharon cancelled because a article he wrote said that some of the middle eastern problems are due to 'grievances'.  Can you, in all fairness, say that the Palestinians have no grievances at all, not even legitimate ones?

As for terrorism is terrorism, that's only true so far in that terror is used as tool.  The attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon are against strategic targets, in order to create maximum visibility for whatever their cause is.  It is a political and symbolic target, and the simple fact that thousands of people died is a bonus.  The Pentagon, considering that they dropped an entire airliner on it, had a low casualty rate... no more than a couple hundred.  That was definately a symbolic target, they could just have easily crashed that plane into the Empire State building or any other highrise and killed more people.  But they didn't.

The terror attacks in Isreal and Ireland (as there are similarities there) are different in scope.  Not that they're 'better' in any nebulous way, in fact I think it's much worse as it's unremitting, but they aren't meant to act as a symbol to the world as a whole.  It's much more personal.

You cannot simply say 'it's terrorism' and leave it at that.  Nothing in this world is that black and white.  You have to look at the people who do it, and the reasons they do it, and their targets.

[Anduril]

The US seems to have a tough decision...including Israel in the coalition would lose the support of a lot of arabs. Sad but true.

[Shrike]

Yes, this is a real hot button topic... unfortunately, it's something we have to live with in this day and age.

[Styxx]

So, things are different when it comes to America, eh? Tell me, how many people must die before it's considered wrong?

[Kellan]

If high-ups in the Palestinian Authority are indoctrinating essentially innocent young people into committing acts of terror, then indict them as war criminals and ship them off to den Haag. That's what the ICC is there for - but then, if you can prove that you have to face the fact that Mr. Sharon might end up taking a trip over there to defend himself. What was it, 20 years ago just recently that the massacres happened?

Of course sandwich, I can see your point that if we have proof of Bin Laden's actions and support plain old assassination, but come down like a ton of bricks on the 'targeted elimination' of Palestinian terrorists (or whatever it's called - that's not a bitter comment, I just can't remember   ) there's a clear double standard.

In this case I find it difficult to suggest a 'right' way. The US never signed up to the ICC (or ICHRA) anyway, but legally and morally it should really try Bin Laden as a terrorist, not a war criminal. A war is actually defined as a conflict between two nations. As a case in point, was Timothy McVeigh tried as a terrorist in US courts, or as a war criminal a la Nuremburg or in front of a military court?

Still, I suspect politically Bush cannot afford to do that - dead people can't defend themselves in court, after all.  

[Shrike]

 

Originally posted by Styxx:
So, things are different when it comes to America, eh? Tell me, how many people must die before it's considered wrong?

Who said it wasn't wrong?  I am simply saying that I think saying the problems that Isreal and the US face when it comes to terrorism are the same doesn't take into account the backgrounds and reasons for those acts, and that they cannot simply be grouped together under the broad heading of 'terrorism'.

[Martinus]

 

Originally posted by Shrike:
if the Isrealis keep trying for an 'all or nothing' peace deal, they're going to get exactly nowhere.  You have to start somewhere, and they are not letting that start happen by demanding too much off the bat.

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head Shrike. Both sides (unionists and nationalists) in this country want it totally their way, half measures are just not good enough so the 'war' has been dragging on for years. If there is no common ground to be reached then nobody wins.

...and as always stuck slap bang in the middle are the people who just want them all to quit fighting and just get on with life. Sitting on the fence can be pretty precarious though.

[jonskowitz]

The problem with people is that they're only human  

I've been griping for years about the incomplete and biased reporting on Isreali situations (and Ireland for that matter...)  All the media ever reports is how many people were killed in a specific instance, and we almost never hear about the terrorist attack that instigated the operation to begin with.  The moment of my greatest disgust was during a violent battle in Gaza, while the reporter was busy telling us about how many Palestinians had been killed during the demonstration I saw a small child intentionally lifted above the barricades by an older man.  I've never seen camera angles get switched so quickly...  The whole scene left me with a pit in my stomach when I realized that the child would likely be simply reported as being killed during the battle without a single word given as to how.

On a similar note, did you know that when the "Million Moms March" (an anti-gun lobby within the US) generated thier statistical data on how many children were killed annually by guns in the US they included all persons 18 years old and younger, and they also included those killed by police?  It's very easy to manipulate statistical data to have it tell whatever viewpoint you want it to.

[This message has been edited by jonskowitz (edited 09-25-2001).]

[Nico]

pfff, aren't you all fed up talking about that here, at HLP? bah, last time I check this thread. Have fun.

[Sandwich]

Thanks for brining thi point up again, Maeg - I wanted to comment on it but forgot...  

 

Originally posted by Shrike:
...if the Isrealis keep trying for an 'all or nothing' peace deal, they're going to get exactly nowhere.  You have to start somewhere, and they are not letting that start happen by demanding too much off the bat.

Before Sharon became Prime Minister, we had Barak. For people like me, at the time he was a disaster for Israel. He kept on offerring more and more land to the PA, and we were wondering if it was just a matter of time before he started to offer Tel-Aviv as well. :-/

But, thank God, Arafat had Pharoh's heart - hardened. He refused every offer that came his way, saying that it wasn't enough. IIRC he was offered something like 95% of Judea, Samaria and Gaza (the "territories") towards the end, but he still refused. Is that what you would call Israel demanding too much?

In hindsight, I can see now that it was good that Barak was willing to part with so much land. I, and hopefully the world, can now see that Arafat's desire was not the much-professed land. If he had truly desired the land for the Palestinians, he would have gobbled up what was offered to him.

But he didn't. And all the time he made appearences at various rallys (in Arabic) in the PA areas, where he would lead the Palestinians in chants of: "Jihad, jihad jihad!" and the like.

Now about the differences in the terrorisim targets in the US and Israel, it is true - the targets in the States were "political", as opposed to the ones in Israel being simple "kill 'em all" targets.

Shrike: before the September 11th attacks, would you have defined what was going on in Israel as "terrorisim"? I'll assume that your answer would be "yes". So if so, why the change now? It's not the lower end of the definition of terrorisim that has changed, but the upper one. What we have here in Israel is terrorisim. What happened in the States is terrorisim, but on a scale that had never been seen before. But they are both still terrorisim.


------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar, the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)

[Anduril]

Sandwich is right- terrorism is terrorism. I don't care WHAT the motives are. I don't see any way to justify terrorism or try to shuffle it into a tamer category.

Terrorism is something that the US has not devoted nearly enough time to historally- it's been pretty much on the "Someone Else's Problem" list. It took 9/11 to finally convince people that that isn't the case...I just hope we follow through with what Bush claims and expend every effort to wipe terrorism away, whether it be Bin Laden's or Palestinian or Eskimo. If anyone can stamp terrorism out, it's the United States of America.

[Stryke 9]

*sigh* Gotta take the devil's advocate post AGAIN???

The fact is, yes, terrorism is extremely ugly and in general a nasty thing to do, but in the case of the Palestinians and Afghans, it is their only weapon. They lack the equipment to wage a full-scale (and for some reason better?) war, so they turn to suicide bombings and terror tactics. Don't forget that both Israel and the US have accomplished essentially the same acts, only using cruise missiles and rockets, and that in the end we have acted no better. We have our civilian kills, too, and until people start realizing that the method of killing or the motivations of either side make no real difference, we will live in a world of terrorism and hard rain.

Note that the Northern Irish mobs are not included in this- throwing bombs at a specific group of women and children as "protest" against another terrorist group who has little or nothing to do with the children is even worse, if it's possible to act worse.

[Sandwich]

 

Originally posted by Stryke 9:
...hard rain...

Don't you mean Hard Light?  

I think I'll let someone else answer for once. Don't force me into explaining why there is a world of difference between the US/Israel and terrorisim...  



------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar, the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)

[Sandwich]

 

Originally posted by Pez:
Sandvich can you bring some light about why Israeli forces invaded Jenin and Jerico. I also read that they have been bombing Gaza, Ramallah, Beit Sahour and Beit Jala. Is this true?

I have heard absolutely nothing to this effect occurring in the recent past; where did you read this? Maybe you're referring to a not-so-recent strike?


------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar, the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)

[Pez]

 

Originally posted by sandwich:
I have heard absolutely nothing to this effect occurring in the recent past; where did you read this? Maybe you're referring to a not-so-recent strike?

I'm refering to what Edward W Said wrote in this article: http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/kultur/story/0,2789,90373,00.html  (swedish newspaper)

He wrote: "Since Septhember the 11th israeli military forces have invaded Jenin and Jerico and by repeated ocasions bombed Gaza, Ramallah, Beit Sahour och Beit Jala, which has lead to a large number of dead and injured civilians and enormous material damages"

I don't know if he's refering to something that happend two weeks ago or if it goes way past back. I just wonder if you knew anything about that.

Pez

[Shrike]

 

Originally posted by sandwich:
Shrike: before the September 11th attacks, would you have defined what was going on in Israel as "terrorisim"? I'll assume that your answer would be "yes". So if so, why the change now? It's not the lower end of the definition of terrorisim that has changed, but the upper one. What we have here in Israel is terrorisim. What happened in the States is terrorisim, but on a scale that had never been seen before. But they are both still terrorisim.

Why are you assuming that I consider what's going on in Isreal as anything other than terrorism, now or then?  You're twisting what I've been saying.  Calling something terrorism is so broad, you must get more specific.  Can you compare the war in 'Nam with the Gulf War?  Only on the surface, you have to go deeper than that.

[Sandwich]

 

Originally posted by Shrike:
...Calling something terrorism is so broad, you must get more specific.

As the world has seen recently, terrorism is very broad. On one end you have the occasional Molotov cocktail thrown at a military emplacement and causing no damage. On the other extreme you have the WTC attacks. Both are terrorism, but they have extremely different results.

So, now that we both agree that terrorism is broad, what were we disagreeing about?      


------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.

"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar, the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)

[Crazy_Ivan80]

However... an importatn part of solving the entire Palestinian-Israel problem will be dismantling the Jewish settlements.
I know you wont like that idea Sandwich, but rest assured it will have to happen if Isreal and Palestine want to have any chance for a lasting peace.