Author Topic: The usefulness of new ship classes???  (Read 52461 times)

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Re: The usefulness of new ship classes???
I can definitely see how a ship (for the SOC, for instance, or some other entity that might need to get in and out in a hurry) might be modified to make chain jumping more feasible by fitting extra massive heatsinks or by overengineering the subspace drive to make it more forgiving.

A bit like overclocking really :p Fit a bigger cooler and use a heavier-duty equipment and the risks of frying the system are greatly reduced :)

Heh.  Why not just put two subspace engines in?

I'd imagine a modified Hecate with just a single anti-cap beam and a load of anti-fighter beams with two jump-drives would have much better survival odds.  Afterall, the Hecate doesn't really have enough to stand toe-to-toe against an Orion, but imagine if it could jump in at a distance, launch spacecraft and jump out when the Orion gets too close.  And because of the second jump drive, being followed isn't as much of a problem.

Of course, it'd be annoying for mission design with multiple jumps (unless the SCP wizards make a way to do an in-mission subspace jump).

In any case, I think that a snubfighter base-carrier ought to be mobile.  Even with beams, they're awfully vulnerable and as long as its an intersystem jump, the fighters could always follow.

 

Offline Prophet

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Re: The usefulness of new ship classes???
...but imagine if it could jump in at a distance, launch spacecraft and jump out when the Orion gets too close...
Wake up call... The fighters can jump on their own. No need for the carrier to expose itself...
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Re: The usefulness of new ship classes???
...but imagine if it could jump in at a distance, launch spacecraft and jump out when the Orion gets too close...
Wake up call... The fighters can jump on their own. No need for the carrier to expose itself...

Of course, that's right.

You don't usually equip fighters with inter-system drives for the node jumps though.  So jumping through a node could possibly yield a situation like that.  Like if you're trying to run a blockade.  Jump in through the node and immediately activate the other drive to do an intersystem jump.  Two jump drives could still be useful in some situations.

In any case, the point of the two jump drives is for increased mobility since a more carrier-oriented destroyer wouldn't want to hang around when attacked.

 

Offline Prophet

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Re: The usefulness of new ship classes???
You don't usually equip fighters with inter-system drives for the node jumps though.  So jumping through a node could possibly yield a situation like that.  Like if you're trying to run a blockade.  Jump in through the node and immediately activate the other drive to do an intersystem jump.  Two jump drives could still be useful in some situations.
In a blockade busting move, I consider it too risky to commit the fighters base of operations. More probable would be to sent some other ships (cruisers/corvettes), and only a small fighter cover. In a real life battle, anything can happen. And a risk is still a risk. And we saw what happened to the NTF when it tried to get past a jumpnode blockade... So committing a whaladon on a blockade run is a bigh nono.

The whole thing with fighters suggests that the inter-system subspace drive is allready a different drive from the "normal" one. And I dont really see the need for a second jumpdrive in a carrier oriented vessel. If its job is to sit his ass somewhere safe and deploy fighters. And should it be discovered, it can allways jump to another safe haven, hopefully getting rid of the attackers.

But I agree that two jumpdrives could be useful in some situations. If equipped in to somekind of fast attack cruiser/corvette, for hit-and-run tactics...
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Offline karajorma

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Re: The usefulness of new ship classes???
The question of this debate is CAN a BB work in FS universe.. and since there is no BB in ther I have to invent it. So yes, I am inventing..jsut as other people are inventing missile frigates with ling-range anti-cap missiles (which we NEVER saw in Fs universe). How come you're not assaulting their ideas and designs as "broken"?

Cause none of them invent uber ships like your battleships and then insist that they are the ultimate answer to everything completely ignoring all evidence anyone else points out to the evidence. Notice when AlphaOne made the same mistake everyone pointed out the flaws in his design. Now we're doing the same to you.

I pointed out that the fact that the battleship was screwed when facing fighters simply because of the fact that it's a single big slow moving target and you completely ignored it presumably because you had no answer to that enormous flaw in the design.

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Where the **** did I say that a battleship has to be 6km long. Now you're rewriting my arguments as well as rewriting :v:'s canon to suit the points you want to make?
 Besides if it was a laughing stock then it's quite probable that any BB designed by the same people would also be a laughing stock too.

Actually you did assume it was 2-3 times hte size of a Sath.
Before accusing me of twisting your words, you should double chekc what you posted in the first place.

As Shade pointed out already he said that not me. Now say you're sorry.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: The usefulness of new ship classes???

Actually, I pit 5 Leviathans against an Orion. Orion couldn't even destroy one of them before exploding. 2 Deimoses, however, tore the Leviathans into pieces(with 30% and 60% health left).

In the end, a battle is won by carefully balancing the fleet and knowing when and where to strike. A spy craft or even a fleet of  argo transports can shift the tide of war just as easily as any humongous battleship.

Don't know with what tables you are playing, but by me the Orion pawns anything except a Ravana.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: The usefulness of new ship classes???
...but imagine if it could jump in at a distance, launch spacecraft and jump out when the Orion gets too close...
Wake up call... The fighters can jump on their own. No need for the carrier to expose itself...

Of course, that's right.

You don't usually equip fighters with inter-system drives for the node jumps though.  So jumping through a node could possibly yield a situation like that.  Like if you're trying to run a blockade.  Jump in through the node and immediately activate the other drive to do an intersystem jump. 

But wouldn't the destroyer like, have to launch fihgters/bombers? And that takes time as I recall..and by that time it will be utterly pawned.
Sure it can just jump out wihtou launching fighter(but not immediately, even with 2 jump drives..it would take afew seconds..and we all seen what a few seconds can do when you have Mjlonirs), but that doesn't reayl sole the problem, as half hte enemy fleet can follow it WITH their allready deploey fighter and it would still get pawned.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: The usefulness of new ship classes???
Cause none of them invent uber ships like your battleships and then insist that they are the ultimate answer to everything completely ignoring all evidence anyone else points out to the evidence. Notice when AlphaOne made the same mistake everyone pointed out the flaws in his design. Now we're doing the same to you.

I pointed out that the fact that the battleship was screwed when facing fighters simply because of the fact that it's a single big slow moving target and you completely ignored it presumably because you had no answer to that enormous flaw in the design.

I never said it was the ultimate answer to everything. It has some advanatges over other capship classes in some situations, and some disadvantages too.
The biggest disadvantage is it's szie and no fightercover. So yes, fighters/bomber are it's weakness, but that doesn't mean it's a pushover.. After all, would you consider the Colossus a pushover for fighters to take out?



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As Shade pointed out already he said that not me. Now say you're sorry.

Correct. He assumed that. You just followed his comments.
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Offline Fineus

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Re: The usefulness of new ship classes???
Trashman, please edit a single posts rather than making several in succession. There's no need to triple post.

Also, settle down please guys. I get the feeling the karma of this thread is getting a little intense.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: The usefulness of new ship classes???
Force of habbit..

I read a post, adn quote it and reply if it merrits it and then continue on.
That way I focus on a single post at a time and don't skip things...
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Offline Fineus

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Re: The usefulness of new ship classes???
Learn to change it please, continuous double or more posting adds unnecessary loading times to threads and we've never allowed it here.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: The usefulness of new ship classes???
Presumably I'm not the first person to point out there's a reason why battleships are obselete for any form of naval warfare?  And that they're only used in modern terms as either missile launch platforms (Russian Kirov class) or as sea-based artillery (Utah class), neither of which are particularly useful for space borne scenarios (latter can be performed by pretty much any vessel, former is an entirely different issue in space-planet ops)?   And that force-projection is invariably more effective than a large, powerful but ultimately operational range-restricted vessel? (particularly when there are highly effective fighter/bomber borne weapons against capships)

Plus, is it not worth pointing out that maybe there are restrictions beyond energy and crew anyways?  The Colossus almost melted it's hull firing beam cannons at the Sath - what would the impact be of a similar number of beams spread across a smaller hull?

Wasn't it the attitude of "bigger, heavier, more guns!" that saw the battleship being superceded and made obselete by carriers and fighter aircraft in the first place?

AS I said before, BB's are pulled becosue they can't close to effective range fast, or escape fast. In FS2 they can do both.

I'm not sure what you're point is.  Any ship in FS1/2 can, within a reasonable time range, rapidly escape or arrive, although the actual accuracy of such a jump is open to interpretation.  What the problem is, is that you also need to maneuver upon arrival into a firing position, or simply to avoid exposing your own weak side; this is why carrier/destroyer vessels (NB: the FS1 ref bible makes it pretty clear that destroyers are as much carriers as anything else) are king, because their fighter and bomber assets mean they have a massive coverage in terms of territory; if something jumps in close to a carrier, not only can the carrier retaliate with its own defensive weaponry, it can overwhelm the opposing vessel with fighter and bomber forces that operate at a level of speed and agility far above that of any capital ship.  Unless you're suggesting a battleship-type class can be made to operate with both a mass of anti-fighter and anti-capital ship weaponry, without it being a very large use of resources, you're looking at a classic repeat of the problems the WW2 battleships had; gets within reasonable range of carrier, finds itself under attack from all angles by fighters/bombers whilst the carrier makes an exit.

Additionally, the concept of having precise jumps is a double edged sword; if you can say a battleship can jump in close to a carrier, it also means that there is sufficient technological tracking ability to track and harass any battleship with fighter group sorties.  If you add stand-off artillery type weapons to the battleship, it then just adds further issues;  how do you balance that with enemy fighter groups getting in close (because you can't just slap on aaaf weaponry without consequence), and if you use missiles like trebuchets, where does the ammo storage go?

In terms of fire coverage, again we run into the issues of heat, space, energy, etc restrictions.  The Colossus was probably about as powerful as the Sathanas, but it had better fire coverage at the cost of individual damage (whereas the Sath had a great frontal attack but was very vulnerable elsewhere as a result).  Even accounting for fighterbays, which only covered a tiny area (externally) of these vessels.

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And The Colossus was not designed to fight anything as big as a Sath. It didn't have beam cannons designed for that, so to do more damage it had to overload them.
A BB would have beam cannons designed for that specific purpose (and would have reactors and heat sinks where the Collie has it's fighterbays)

Presumably then it would also have appropriate weaknesses, such as a lack of adequate AAAf defenses, then?  Because you don't get anything without compromising somewhere else.  Also, you can't just shove all the heatsinks & reactors in one place; remember you have to transfer either heat or coolant somehow, and that requires an infrastructure to do so that prevents any centralisation (plus it creates a huge vulnerable weakspot), plus additional issues in protecting said heatsinks (because you obviously can't just vent heat into the ship wholesale, if a beam cannon can generate enough to melt armour; plus I'm not sure how easy it is to vent externally, given that AFAIK you need some form of particle for heat transfer, and you're operating in a vacuum).   Given that the largest ship in the fleet had difficulties powering beams to hurt a Sath, I doubt it'd be a problem easily solved in a smaller ship.

The problem is that your main justification centres around theoretical weaponry and technology; namely reducing crew requirements, longer range weaponry, assumptions about heat and energy requirements, and presuming that it's even possible to load up a ship with both long range, point defense, and anti-capship weaponry with higher armour and absolutely no consequences in terms of size/profile or cost.

Essentially a wrecking ball of a ship laden with a multitude of hitherto unseen turrets of remarkable power, range and low heat/energy requirements and possesing nigh-invulnerable armour that sits and pulverizes a willing enemy force and has no weaknesses beyond less fighters (but is somehow invulnerable to enemy bomber attack and not hunted down by more mobile enemy forces to be slowly attrited). 

Unfortunately, none of the required tech is seen to exist in FS2. I suppose you can justify it (the concept) existing in campaigns set afterwards, but there's a feasibility gap in doing so as you'd expect to see countermeasures - much in the same way as a destroyer is not invulnerable to attack (and there are also very solid gameplay reasons for such).

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: The usefulness of new ship classes???
As Shade pointed out already he said that not me. Now say you're sorry.

Correct. He assumed that. You just followed his comments.

Wrong yet again! You made your assertion that I had said that a BB would be 6km long in a reply to a post I had written before Shade had even posted. How in ****'s name am I figuring out what Shade is going to assume further on in the thread and then following it?

I have always been on about destroyer sized battleship. You've made a poor assumption if you ever assumed that I was on about anything different.

I wouldn't be pressing this point if you hadn't (rather insultingly) told me to check my facts when it was in fact you who was in error but you did, so now you now owe me two apologies. :p

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I never said it was the ultimate answer to everything. It has some advanatges over other capship classes in some situations, and some disadvantages too.
The biggest disadvantage is it's szie and no fightercover. So yes, fighters/bomber are it's weakness, but that doesn't mean it's a pushover.. After all, would you consider the Colossus a pushover for fighters to take out?


The Colossus and Sathanas have their own fighter cover. Without it, yes they are pushovers. Bearbaiting is good proof of exactly how big a pushover they in fact are. The largest ship in the Shivan armada was taken down largely by a couple of sqadrons of fighters and bombers precisely due to it's abysmal lack of fighter cover. The Colossus may have laid the final smackdown on the Sathanas but once its beam cannons were gone it was just a case of doing the same thing to its engines and then hull.

I'd say that any ship taking significant damage from another ship with no real way to stop it counts as being a pushover. Even if it takes time to do it.

And don't bother bringing up the point of the Saths poor AAA. The mission also limited the player to ships without the maxim. Same mission with good AAA but 50 maxim enabled fighters would have had largely the same effect.


When a destroyer jumps tough the node most of it's firepower is unavailable, as it has to luanch all ti's fighters fist. A BB can unleash 100% of it's firepower the second it jumps in. And can take more punishment. Thus it can deal more damage to the blockading ships than a destroyer.

Why the hell are you giving this kind of advantage to the BB? You always do this. You stack every single situation in the BBs favour and then hold it up as proof that you're correct.  Any sensible commander of a blockade would have ships in subspace guarding the corridor. When the BB is spotted coming they'd simply move out of range of the BBs guns take out all the beam cannons they could with maxims and then move in to finish it off.

Given that it takes about 10 minutes to travel through a node the destroyer(s) in the blockade would have ample time to get a fair few of their fighters in the air before hand. And that's not forgetting that any self respecting blocade should have at least a couple of maxim enabled fighters on patrol constantly anyway.

Remember that the entire NTF war and the TV war before that was largely a matter of node blockades. If a BB was such an advantage against blockades surely someone would have thought of them previously.



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Offline Prophet

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Re: The usefulness of new ship classes???
@ TrashMan: Fine, you love battleships. Now stop trying to force everyone else to see what a golden jewels of heaven they are.

@ Everyone else: Fine, TrashMan loves battleships. Now stop trying to force him see what a piece of crap they are.

Jesus christ! What the **** is wrong with you people?
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Offline FireCrack

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Re: The usefulness of new ship classes???
prophet hit the nail on the head here.

Though i had to say, i never thaught you could just "leave" ships in subspace.
actualy, mabye not.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: The usefulness of new ship classes???
Though i had to say, i never thaught you could just "leave" ships in subspace.

There's no evidence that you can't turn a ship around in subspace and come back out the way you came in. Similarly there is none that you can't simply leave a ship in patrol in subspace.
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: The usefulness of new ship classes???
However, the fact that we've basically never seen it done would suggest that Subspace physics work a lot like Derelict surmised, intense traffic or use of a subspace corridor would most likely lead to said corridor incurring damage of some sort.

Or perhaps a subspace generator continues to function whilst in subspace. I haven't checked the Techroom description in a while, but isn't it possible that the subspace generator must remain active whilst in subspace, and would thus create a power-drain on all systems? That would explain why fighter-drives are rare & expensive (power constraints) and why combat inside subspace is rarely seen (the Lucifer being the only case mentioned across both games I believe), again due to power constraints prohibiting the use of weapons.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2006, 08:22:58 am by Mefustae »

 

Offline Wanderer

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Re: The usefulness of new ship classes???
I think that the whole subspace patrol idea goes down with the first mission of the FS2.. 'We have vectored its course into your immediate vicinity' (command about NTCv Belisarius) IMHO indicating that subspace jumps end point is determined and can even be traced by other ships when the subspace drive is engaged. Also the time when the ship arrives can be estimated '...exiting subspace momentarily'..

But those are just my opinions..
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Offline karajorma

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Re: The usefulness of new ship classes???
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The NTCv Belisarius, a Deimos-class corvette, has run our blockade of the Sirius jump node. We are now tracking the vessel through subspace. We have vectored its course to your immediate vicinity.

My assumption has always been that the Belisarius was tracked by ships at the Sirius jump node after it had lept in, recharged it's engines and then jumped out again.

I suppose that could be an indication that they didn't know it was coming and that it took the ships guarding the node by surprise. Equally likely though is that they did know it was coming but they just weren't good enough to hold it (In the same way that if the player is crap ships can get past the blockade in Kings Gambit).
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Offline Prophet

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Re: The usefulness of new ship classes???
I allways figured that subspace jump is just that, a jump. Not a B5 like hyperspace where you can navigate normally. You set the coordinates, and jump. Next time anyone can do anything about it is when you arrive where ever you were going...

My theory about tracking ships trought subspace (intra-system jump) is that when the portal opens, it is possible to "read" from the vortex where it goes.
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