[WMCoolmon]

Bootloader stuff:

I currently use GRUB as my bootloader - It loads on boot and offers to load Slackware, or I can chain down to the the Windows 2000 bootloader and pick '98 or 2000.

If you want to do any sort of boot-menu, I HIGHLY recommend you use GRUB in favour of LILO - LILO is ancient and a PITA; Assuming nothing's changed, you have to re-initialise it everytime you compile the kernel, and if you forget to and reboot you hose your system!
GRUB has big advantages over LILO if you move stuff around - LILO will break but GRUB will still work (And if it doesn't you can edit it on the fly to point to the right places!!)

I have GRUB in my MBR, and even if I take out all the hard disks except IDE0 (My boot) it will still be able to chain to the Win2000 boot loader and get me into Windows '98. (2K is on SATA1, Slackware is on SATA2)


You can get GRUB/LILO to boot to both Windows and Linux directly, but it's easier to leave the Windows boot loader in place and have GRUB/LILO chain to it. If you find a two-step bootprocess annoying 'tho, you may want to put in the extra work to get it to boot directly.

It *IS* possible to use the Windows bootloader to boot Windows or Linux, but I've never gotten it to work - From what I gather it's non-trivial...

Of course when I used GRUB my MBR spontaneously quit working.

[Cyker]

Ouch! 

I'm probably the worst person you could ask for such a thing - I think an actual step-by-step guide by me would be larger than is permitted in a single post Sandwich
That and I'm not overly familiar with Ubuntu's installer process...

You'd be better off researching the installer stuff yourself - I can tell you roughly what you need to have happen, but you'd have to figure out the 'How' part.

For a GRUB-setup where you can remove the other drive, you'll need a small (Say 2-10MB) partition on the primary boot HD to put the other half of GRUB (The first half goes into your boot drive's MBR) and the Linux kernel so that it'll still work when you take the 2nd HD out.

This partition should be formatted as a Linux ext2 filesystem drive and be mounted in your final installation as "/boot"

The best place for this is at the Beginning of your boot drive, but unfortunately I've just realised that this may not be possible for you to do without messing up Windows XP's bootloader...
However, assuming you have a BIOS that doesn't have the Cant-Boot-Past-Disk-Cylinder-1024 problem, you should be able to get away with shrinking your windows partition a tiny bit and tacking /boot on the end of it instead of the beginning so your partiton table would look something like:

Disk HD-A:
Partition - Mountpoint - Format - Size
hda1 - <Windows C:> - NTFS/Whatever - [Lots]
hda2 - /boot - ext2 - 20MB

I think for you, getting the partitions sorted out will be the most delicate part - Once that's done you can screw up and re-install as much as you want as long as you preserve the boot setup.

During the Ubuntu install, you'd configure the partitions so that /boot goes in that little niche you made on HDA, and have Ubuntu configure the freespace on HDB automatically.

I think from there the rest is up to you...



Note - Two things to do before you do *ANYTHING*:
1) Make a backup, or better yet a bootable ghost-image of your current system (before new HD gets out in) so you have a safety net.
2) Learn how to use the Windows XP Recovery Console - It's accessible by booting off the WindowsXP install CD; This way, if anything goes tits up you can boot into that and use the ?fixmbr? command to get the Windows XP bootloader back as the default.


Appendix (Don't read this! Seriously.)
Just to confuse and scare you more, this is what my GRUB.conf looks like for my ludicrously complicated drive setup:

#Default to 1st title section (Slacky!) ; Autoselect after 10 seconds
default=0
timeout=10

#GRUB Boot Menu entries
#0) Load Slackware!
title Slackware Linux
        #Tell Grub where to look for it's stuff (HDA1 /boot)
        root (hd0,0)
        #Tell grub to boot the named kernel and use the specified root partiton
        kernel /bzImage-2.4.25-cy2 root=/dev/hdc1

#1) Chain to Win2k bootloader
title Windows
        #Set the FAT16 C: drive to be the root (Notenotenote! This is where the Windows 2000 bootloader is! Not hdb1!!) and boot it
        rootnoverify (hd0,1)
        makeactive
        chainloader +1

Luckily, Ubuntu should configure all this for you so you'll likely never need to look at it

And here's my partiton table

HDA
hda1 - /boot - ext2 - 20MB
hda2 - C: - FAT16 - 2GB (DOS 6.22, Win2k and 98 boot drive)
hda5* - D: - FAT32 - 10GB (Windows 98SE)
hda6 - E: - FAT32 - 15GB
hda7 - F: - FAT32 - 15GB
hda8 - G: - FAT32 - 35GB

HDB
hdb1 - W: - NTFS - 159GB (Windows 2000 SP4)
hdb2 - <LinuxSwap> - linuxswap - 1GB

HDC
hdc1 - / - ext3 - 20GB (Slackware Linux)
hdc2 - /usr - ext3 - 30GB
hdc3 - /var - ext3 - 10GB
hdc4 - /home - ext3 - 100GB

[Martinus]

Yeah actually, ignore my advice about LILO, I just stick with what I like and what works for me. You're right about having to re-initalise it every time you change the kernel Cyker.

This is a good example BTW of why a knoppix or any other liveCD is fantastic as a recovery tool. You can simply boot it, chroot into your installed OS and fix any problems.

[IceFire]

OK....I lept and I think I got in over my head.  I'm in a wee bit of trouble now and I don't know how to get out.  Before I get into the problem let me outline my present hard drive setup:

Windows XP Home on Seagate SATA 160gb hard drive
SUSE Linux on a Seagate IDE 80GB hard drive

nForce 2 chipsets consider the SATA drive to be a single drive in a RAID configuration (don't ask me why)

I installed SUSE Linux version 10 on the 80GB hard drive as indicated.  All seems to be well.  It can even see and access my two partitions on the SATA drive so I know all my documents are over there.  The problem is that when I boot, I see the SUSE boot system...which I am to understand now is something called GRUB.  I even figured out how to order the things in this through the YAST Control Panel. Cool.  Problem is that when I select Windows XP the following happens.

I see a black screen and the following line appears:

chain loader (hd1,0)+1

Then there is a blinking cursor and NOTHING happens. So I'm a little Windows deprived, I had intended on doing some gaming tonight...but I'm a little concerned.  So far I have done some searches online and while this sounds somewhat common, nobody seems to be able to produce an answer that makes sense to me yet.

So I'm in a wee bit of trouble!

[IceFire]

OH thank god!  Ok...I SOLVED IT.

Next time I boot Linux I'll copy out what I did with the correct code for GRUB to make Windows happy again.  Phew!

[Sandwich]

* Sandwich is getting scared again...

[IceFire]

* Sandwich is getting scared again...

Honestly...SUSE makes it so easy to get started (although it did take over an hour with all the software updates and stuff) that you wonder what the catch is.  The boot up stuff is a bit complicated.  Made more complicated by my current system setup.

Linux is an odd conundrum. SUSE is my first distro that I'm trying...I'm not likely to jump ship right away.  My impression is that on one hand its very easy to use.  On the other hand there is a learning curve and its very hard to go cold turkey. I'm a tinkerer with computers so this stuff is OK by me but the average user would be frusterated out of their mind right now.

When I did get into SUSE for the first time...I tried a bunch of things like trying to play my MP3's and trying to play a DIVX or a Quicktime trailer.  None of that seems to work.  I'm sure I need to go and find something or install something.  The video player software and and the audio player software are present...but presumably no CODECs are installed.  The install is Open SUSE so maybe thats it.

Another thing...I go to download the ATI video drivers...and it downloads some file but when I try and open it I get source code or something like that and I can't actually use it.  This is another Linux problem I feel.  Its a bit harder than it needs to be.

I think Windows still is winning in terms of usability and ease of use for someone like me.  That said, the actual system runs VERY smoothly with few hangs or pauses.  I am impressed in some respects but I understand why its not quite universal yet.

[Descenterace]

For someone who has used nothing but Linux, Windows is hellishly awkward to use.
For anyone brought up on Windows, Linux is complicated.

It all depends on what you're used to. Windows is ONE OPERATING SYSTEM and only needs one set of drivers. Linux is one kernel with several dozen different sets of libraries atop it. Drivers for Linux usually come in source code form because it's simpler than distributing 16 different binaries per CPU architecture.

Besides, how difficult is it to type:
./configure
make install
? I mean, if you can't read the README file, maybe you shouldn't be operating a computer?

[Sandwich]

Besides, how difficult is it to type:
./configure
make install
? I mean, if you can't read the README file, maybe you shouldn't be operating a computer?

Oh please. You know well enough that command-line operations are not an option for 80% of the computer-using populace. Which, BTW, is basically the point I was trying to make back a few months ago with my "The Problem with Linux" thread. It's not that it's a problem per se, but that it's problematic IF you want to reach the general populace and have them start using Linux. Note the "if".

[castor]

Besides, how difficult is it to type:
./configure
make install

I'd say that's a bit optimistic, though.
Remember the dependency, versioning etc. issues? Not to mention all the distro specific pecularities..
But even then it's worth the trouble for many people. Not all, but many.

[Cyker]

Besides, how difficult is it to type:
./configure
make install

Actually, one of the reasons I use Slackware is that, on 90% of modern distros, doing that would be EXTREMELY bad - You'd probably break a crap load of carefully crafted package dependencies...

[Descenterace]

We are talking about dynamically-loaded driver modules here, right? Most of the ones I've got merely require compilation alongside the kernel headers. After that, modprobe does the rest. Dependencies are not an issue.

More complex software that does have dependencies usually works through the distro's package manager, and I am damned happy about that...


Finally, whether or not command line options are required is irrelevant if the exact sequence of commands is described in a README. All the user has to do is type them in as they appear in the file. Reading the documentation may be a dying art, but failing to at least read the 'quick start' instructions when clueless? That is the fault of the user. Besides, a fixed sequence of install instructions can be put in one script (usually install.sh) and that only requires a single command to execute.

The shell prompt is an important part of Linux. Users quickly learn the basics of running programs from it.

[Cyker]

We are talking about dynamically-loaded driver modules here, right? Most of the ones I've got merely require compilation alongside the kernel headers. After that, modprobe does the rest. Dependencies are not an issue.

More complex software that does have dependencies usually works through the distro's package manager, and I am damned happy about that...


Finally, whether or not command line options are required is irrelevant if the exact sequence of commands is described in a README. All the user has to do is type them in as they appear in the file. Reading the documentation may be a dying art, but failing to at least read the 'quick start' instructions when clueless? That is the fault of the user. Besides, a fixed sequence of install instructions can be put in one script (usually install.sh) and that only requires a single command to execute.

The shell prompt is an important part of Linux. Users quickly learn the basics of running programs from it.

Ahh you are right, I missed the 'Kernel Modules' part 

It isn't always that easy, but for the most part this is very true. Heck, nVidia's drivers practically do everything for you
(My current worse-case is where I had to compile a kernel driver for some obscure on-board LAN chip, and you had to specify all sorts of compile-options crap for it or it'd barf! Remember this lesson kids: Stay away from cheap-ass obscure hardware (As opposed to cheap-ass generic-standards hardware ) if you want to have a happy Linux experience!)



At the moment, Linux is best for two kinds of people:
1) Newbies
2) Elite hackers (real, not press)

The newbies, they will just use what is given to them. Put something like Ubuntu or Knoppix in front of them and give them a quick tour and they'll be using it with no problems and without the threat of being r00ted or pwned by Joe-Trojan or John-Virus.
They'll only use the package installers and so will be under little risk of trashing the system
With modern distros, you need *never* touch the command line, and that makes this group happy

The elite hacker types, they relish the insane complexity that you can get into with Linux, (Should you want to!). Anyone using LFS or Gentoo usually comes under this catagory

People who are not total n00bs, but who're also not Linus Torvalds, will have the most trouble because they usually want the system up, but setup slightly different to the way they want, but don't have the knowledge/experience to do it, which usually ends up with lots of Hands On Learning (breaking stuff )
But they learn the most out of the three.

The ones with the most problems are Mainstream Gamers - If you're one of them, you can pretty much forget Linux - You are Own3d by Microsoft

[Descenterace]

I wouldn't call myself one of the Linux elite. Hell, I've only been using it for two years and that was mostly because Windows is too bulky to use as a server OS on a Pentium 3...

But I use Gentoo on my main rig. I wouldn't say it's especially difficult, because the instructions for a stage 3 install are pretty comprehensive. All you need to do is read and type. Setting up the make configs can be awkward but the default is OK for most people.

In fact, I'd say that Gentoo has been a lot simpler for me than Debian. Portage is a very smart package manager, certainly the equal of Aptitude. It doesn't have a graphical front end (at least, I haven't installed one) but it's pretty good at figuring out a package name from a keyword; DWIM in action, it seems.

[Cyker]

I've just gotten off my lazy arse to finally kludge toether a machine to be my next toy server.

I was considering putting Slackware 10.2 on it since I'm used to how Slackware does things, but since this machine is an AthlonXP and not an K6-3, it felt a bit wasteful since Slacky's binaries are almost all compiled for i386s for universal compatibility, so I decided to try Gentoo again.

Dear god, I'd forgotten how evil and painful the installation process is (Mainly because it doesn't actually *have* an installer!).

I've just had to start from scratch because I took a shortcut, using an old stage3 tarball, which I've discovered makes portage break when you get to the point where you have to "emerge sync"  to build the software catalogue!

So now I am currently waiting for 92MB's of a 2005 stage3 to download over my slow DSL connection so I can start again


I can honestly *not* recommend this one as a simple distro to you Sandwich

How far have you gotten anyway? If any
It's taken me about 6 months to finally do something about this one... 

[Martinus]

The cost of using a 'bleeding edge' distro I'm afraid Cyker.

I found a stage three install to be relatively straightforward. As for the CLI; if you have any reservations then I'd advise you to give up now as linux troubleshooting simply requires it.

[Cyker]

It's not the CLI I'm having trouble with, it's the lack of *stuff* the boot environment has once you get to the end of stage3, and also the end of the installation documentation.

It doesn't actually tell you how to get X up and running in a nice easy way for starters!

My goal is to get this system up and running the same as my current Slackware-on-a-486 box, which means people have to be able to SSH in and use VNC to run things like Opera.

I can see this is going to be a long road - I know now I can't just to emerge tightvnc or something, because it will install a metric-assload of crap into the system that I don't want (Ironically, better package options control is half the reason why I wanted to try Gentoo in the first place!)

After finishing the Installation guide, I just wanted to add Midnight Commander (It makes browsing the filesystem a lot easier, and you get mcedit which is a lot better than nano and a lot easier to use than vi!), but running "emerge -av mc" and it'll try and install GTK2 and X as well!

So I had to do 'USE="-X" emerge -av mc' instead, but it's stuff like that that tells me I'll have to install everything piecemeal.
The other annoyance is I don't know what versions of packages I currently have are; There doesn't appear to be an easy way of listing a) All the packages you've currently got b) What options they were compiled with and c) What version they are

I know this is just ranting, and I must apologise since this isn't really the place for it
I'm just having a hard time getting used to this after using Slackware for so long.

Do you reckon I should just junk it and install Slackware 10 instead?
Or is it worth the initial pain to get everything working...?

My current worry is whether I can compile things manually without using Portage later, without breaking anything - The scripts and config layout is substantially more complicated than the BSD-style stuff in Slackware (Although it's better than the usual SysV setup! )

Really, I think I'm getting on pretty well. I'm just being a whiney bastard in here because nobody else wants to listen to my ranting

[IceFire]

Well I've only ventured into SUSE a few times since I installed it.  I'm of mixed emotions over the whole thing.  For one, I am glad that I made the jump and tried it out.  Its a valuable learning experience to venture into a different OS entirely but on the same piece of hardware.  You start to separate out the OS from the base of the hardware...even when that sort of thing is abundantly clear anyways.

SUSE takes a while to start (maybe almost 1 minute from start of boot to finished loading) but once its done it seems very brisk and it rarely skips a beat. Even when I'm running a few different tasks it seems to just keep going like not much is going on.  I suspect that its one of those "bettar than Wind0wz" sorts of things.

So far I'm completely baffled on why I can't get Azerus to play MP3's (something to do with codecs which I haven't sorted yet - xine VS something else?), and I haven't got a clue how to install the ATI video drivers yet (although I'm getting along very well with just the default video mode whatever it is), but its not bad.  I keep thinking...for a person who wants 3 things: office software, basic web-browsing, and e-mail this is pretty solid.  For me...with many years of Windows use under my belt and the general understanding of most nooks and crannies in the OS this stuff is all new to me and I can't look under the hood as readily as I  can in Windows...not that you can't..just I haven't quite figured and commited to memory everything.

Its a viable alternative...and if something were to go belly up with Windows via a doomsday sort of virus/worm scenario I'd still be chugging along on SUSE fairly well in my estimation.  At the very worst its giving me a taste of the *nix environment and expanding my computer knowledge a bit.

[Col. Fishguts]

It doesn't actually tell you how to get X up and running in a nice easy way for starters!

*cough cough*

I think you're looking for this: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/index.xml?catid=desktop

specifically: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/xorg-config.xml

[Cyker]

As I said - Not in a nice easy way

There is a manual there - There are manuals for *everything*, but half the time they don't actually tell me anything useful, or leave out important bits of info. (I'm glad I did X on my own BEFORE I found that section because all that stuff about Modular X.Org would have tripped me up, while the actual X.Org doc was sitting descretely in the middle somewhere!)

They're not so much guides/manuals as references - If I wasn't used to doing sutff 'the hard way' from my Slackware days I don't think I'd have gotten this far!

I did find one website that had nice one-shot mini-guides for doing specific tasks here:
http://perso.netplus.ch/FCorthay/InstallGentoo/index.html
but it glosses over anything other than a straight install...

I must admit, I'm getting a little disheartened at the lack of customisability with Gentoo - It does make things a LOT easier in some senses (I don't have to ./configure;make;make install EVERYTHING by hand! Woo!), but it's at the cost of a lot of customisability, and I haven't found a way of making emerge ./configure things with the options *I* want. USE= gets me a little of the way there, but man...

I am currently trying to get KDE to emerge without pulling in all this crap that I *know* it doesn't need, but there doesn't seem to be a way to do it so far
I am tempted to try hacking the dependency lists, but I do not think that'd be a good idea...!