Author Topic: Playstation 2 graphics  (Read 2806 times)

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Offline Mefustae

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Offline aldo_14

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I don't believe HD-DVD (which I presume you mean by HVD)

HVD can hold 3.9 Terabytes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc

Ah, HVD - forgot about that.  I think that's really a different market to both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD though; much like how we still use CDs for audio despite having DVDs for video (etc), I doubt there will be much of a need for TBs of space in the markets Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will be sold in.  Odd s are we'll see HD-DVD and Blu-ray in the media/multimedia sector (games, movies) and HVD (or similar) used by companies storing large amounts of data.

 

Offline Deepblue

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Aldo, HVD is HOLODISK (terabytes FTW!). Not HD-DVD.

 

Offline Deepblue

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The only thing is that Blu-Ray won't see wide use like DVD, because unlike DVDs which made an instant difference on any TV, it will only affect those who have HDTVs.

Not only that, but HVD is on its way.
although isn't the HDTV thing also an arguement against both the Xbox360 and PS3 as game consoles? (as the primary first-gen difference really is only noticeable on HDTV)

http://www.xboxyde.com/news_2601_en.html

Come back after you watch that. That was captured on SD. Not HD.

 

Offline aldo_14

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The only thing is that Blu-Ray won't see wide use like DVD, because unlike DVDs which made an instant difference on any TV, it will only affect those who have HDTVs.

Not only that, but HVD is on its way.
although isn't the HDTV thing also an arguement against both the Xbox360 and PS3 as game consoles? (as the primary first-gen difference really is only noticeable on HDTV)

http://www.xboxyde.com/news_2601_en.html

Come back after you watch that. That was captured on SD. Not HD.

I said primary first-gen, as in released and demo-ed game I can see on either TV or within shops (which are the primary selling point for any new console - not the games in xx months time).

  

Offline Deepblue

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The only thing is that Blu-Ray won't see wide use like DVD, because unlike DVDs which made an instant difference on any TV, it will only affect those who have HDTVs.

Not only that, but HVD is on its way.
although isn't the HDTV thing also an arguement against both the Xbox360 and PS3 as game consoles? (as the primary first-gen difference really is only noticeable on HDTV)

http://www.xboxyde.com/news_2601_en.html

Come back after you watch that. That was captured on SD. Not HD.

I said primary first-gen, as in released and demo-ed game I can see on either TV or within shops (which are the primary selling point for any new console - not the games in xx months time).

That's coming out in 10 days or so. Plus, PGR3 looks awesome on any TV as well.

 

Offline aldo_14

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That's coming out in 10 days or so. Plus, PGR3 looks awesome on any TV as well.

But it's not out yet, is it (March 10th release)?  So we've not seen it in a 'real' context; we've seen the sort of flashy developer picked best shots of it.

And I don't think PGR3 - IMO - looks all that good.  Ultimately, it's a racing game; and all the flashy pants detail and accurately modelled leather seat specular maps don't really count for much playing (or watching others playing) it; it's just a zoomed out view of a car, and some tarmac, and the rest becomes superfluous when you focus on that.  Flashy close up shots are good for press packs, but they bear bugger all relation to what a player sees.

Which is beside the point.  Point was, it's not very fair to damn blu-ray for being most noticeable of HDTV (although I'd imagine the larger size and hence no need to disk swap as a major selling point too), when both the 'big' (i.e. flashy and mouthy) consoles by Sony and MS are blathering on about the 'HDTV generation' and other such claptrap; because how much value is it going to be to people if their £300+ console needs an £800+ TV to actually look its best?  The handicaps are similar for both video and gaming in that respect; if you spend that amount of money on something (console or dvd player), you'll naturally moan about what you miss out on.

 
Another thing I feel was missed here. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will have a standard DVD layer on them. This will be to ensure people who still only have DVD players can still watch their HD-DVD and Blu-Ray discs in a dvd player. It will be of normal DVD quality though as you will need a HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player to play the HD quality film on the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray layers. Just thought I would let people know.

 

Offline JoeLo

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   Really? Thats good I guess I don't have to sell my left kidney to watch movies  :pimp:

 

Offline Deepblue

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That's coming out in 10 days or so. Plus, PGR3 looks awesome on any TV as well.

But it's not out yet, is it (March 10th release)? So we've not seen it in a 'real' context; we've seen the sort of flashy developer picked best shots of it.

And I don't think PGR3 - IMO - looks all that good. Ultimately, it's a racing game; and all the flashy pants detail and accurately modelled leather seat specular maps don't really count for much playing (or watching others playing) it; it's just a zoomed out view of a car, and some tarmac, and the rest becomes superfluous when you focus on that. Flashy close up shots are good for press packs, but they bear bugger all relation to what a player sees.

Which is beside the point. Point was, it's not very fair to damn blu-ray for being most noticeable of HDTV (although I'd imagine the larger size and hence no need to disk swap as a major selling point too), when both the 'big' (i.e. flashy and mouthy) consoles by Sony and MS are blathering on about the 'HDTV generation' and other such claptrap; because how much value is it going to be to people if their £300+ console needs an £800+ TV to actually look its best? The handicaps are similar for both video and gaming in that respect; if you spend that amount of money on something (console or dvd player), you'll naturally moan about what you miss out on.

Now I KNOW you havn't even clicked the link to make such an ignorant statement. This footage was not "released" by the developers. It's preview code with many bugs/low-res textures still and is footage of a level played by the person who manages the site and hosted thes video.

And you only EVER play PGR3 in the in-car view. Otherwise you're right.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Now I KNOW you havn't even clicked the link to make such an ignorant statement. This footage was not "released" by the developers. It's preview code with many bugs/low-res textures still and is footage of a level played by the person who manages the site and hosted thes video.

And you only EVER play PGR3 in the in-car view. Otherwise you're right.

Was the footage released by a private individual playing the finalized game on their home machine?  Then it's of no value to me.  We don't know how close any footage is or is not to a final build, nor which features will be retained, etc.  This doesn't apply to that video, but all shots.  Same as every preview shot of PGR3 (because it's pretty much the only game I can think of built from scratch for the 360, rather than a Rare upgrade to a GC title or a Pc conversion) focused on closeups of lovingly modelled cars, when you'd never be able to play in any sort of viewing showing as such.  It was a bit like the mind-numbly pointless 'photo' mode of GT4 in that respect.

And of course I haven't watched it - why would I waste an hour or so and 153mb of HD space to watch a video of a game that I have no wish to consider buying, looks fairly derivative IMO, and is for a console I have intention of buying?  And why are you dictating the only way to play a game?  Are we to be forced to play games in a certain way to appreciate pointless extra detail?  Even in the in-car view, what would you be looking at - the lovingly replicated walnut gearnob, or the track a couple of hundreds down the way?

I'm not saying so much it isn't better graphics - of course it is - just that the whole point is now shoving in these better graphics and doing bugger all to add gamplay... and that when push comes to shove, yer average punter will not see so much of a difference on their 20 inch big telly when either they see the ads, or bring the console home.

 

Offline WMCoolmon

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Ah, HVD - forgot about that.  I think that's really a different market to both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD though; much like how we still use CDs for audio despite having DVDs for video (etc), I doubt there will be much of a need for TBs of space in the markets Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will be sold in.  Odd s are we'll see HD-DVD and Blu-ray in the media/multimedia sector (games, movies) and HVD (or similar) used by companies storing large amounts of data.

I would love DVD-Audio but I get the feeling that the prices will get jacked up before it goes mainstream. :blah:
-C

 

Offline Deepblue

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A. It's on the PC too.
B. It proves you wrong that SD will not see any upgrade.
C. It's BETA code. Not code with features that will be stripped, code that has features yet to be added and optimized.
D. PGR3 provides the most visceral virtual racing currently available. The detailed cockpit replicas help with imersion and make the game feel more real.

 

Offline aldo_14

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A. It's on the PC too.
B. It proves you wrong that SD will not see any upgrade.
C. It's BETA code. Not code with features that will be stripped, code that has features yet to be added and optimized.
D. PGR3 provides the most visceral virtual racing currently available. The detailed cockpit replicas help with imersion and make the game feel more real.

a; um...so?  I said the game didn't interest me in any case.  In any case, I doubt it would run on my Pc, and pound for pound a 360 (if you find one) is probably cheaper than a top-gen upgrade........

b;Sorry?  It's a less significant upgrade in my opinion at this stage.  To me it's a rather simple equation; less optimized games (new technology), written to run effectively on higher resolution, mean both less of a visual improvement on SDTV than games on the same console running at a fixed SDTV resolution, and less of an immediate improvement upon the best recent/old-gen games (which have the advantage of not catering to higher resolution nor the need to aqquaint oneselve with a new toolset).  In any case, of all the released games I've seen so far, the primary change has been higher resolution and anti-aliasing.  That will likely change, but it still dampens the arguement.

 More importantly, I guess, both Sony and MS have been very keen to champion the 360 and PS3 as heralding the age of 'HD gaming'; in other words to link the console with these expensive TVs in the consumers' minds, almost trying to make them feel obliged to buy (a) HDTV with the console - or neither.  Which was essentially my point; the primary marketing push seems to me to centre around the HDTV resolution of the games, probably because the visual difference isn't massively easy to quantify (especially in the first gen)

c; Features are not added in Beta testing; they are added during Alpha.  Beta is the process when code is feature-locked and tested for correctness prior to release; all code changes are for corrections. Features can, though, be removed or trimmed during beta if there are unfixable errors relating to them; one example that comes to mind is BF:Vietnam, which cut a number of items from it (B-52 bombers and flare guns in particular), causing much chagrin to magazines that reviewed the beta version (gits).  In any case, it's unwise to use a non-finalized version as a judge of the final product; it can cut both ways, either giving an unfairly poor example of the game, or allowing and unfairly positive one (due to the expectation of significant corrections); how many times have we seen magazine previews (even when seen shortly before) that are far, far more positive than the eventually review? I also remember stories - may be wrong here - about concerns over the performance of PGR3 which seemed resolved by revealing it 'only' ran at 720p rather than 1080p.

In any case, features are never added in beta - that'd be blatant stupidity as it would require restarting the whole beta testing process.

d; You opinion, I guess (sounds a bit like a PR soundbite, actually - 'visceral'?!).  All I've read (from professional reviewers, like) is that it's essentially a shinier version of PGR2.  I doubt added detail in the interiors has or ever will impact gameplay; certainly I'd (for example) rate a few of the N64 games above PS2 and PC equivalents.  More importantly, again, the players visual focus is upon the road and opponents in front of them; these flashy cockpits become peripheral vision objects.  Obviously you'll see it more and more, replete with motion captured Havk physics furry dice, but I suspect it's down to the developers feeling obliged to add something and keep pace rather than any actual advantage to gameplay.  Also gaming is a fundamentally dissasociative medium anyways, and the whole uncanny valley effect numbs the response to graphics; I've not been exactly blown away by anything of late on PC, 360, PS3, etc, although I am now somewhat cynical & numb to the 'bigger, flasher' syndrome affecting most new games, nowadays.

Anyways, to get back on topic.  The original criticism you made of blu-ray was that it required HD-TV for full effect, and that low HD-TV ownership would mean DVDs would be dominant.  My point was, isn't that equally applicable to next-gen consoles trumpeting the 'HD revolution' or somesuch?  As in, why would people upgrade to them if they don't get the full HD-TV effect?

We know, of course, people do anyways.  People futureproof in bits and bobs; they don't just go out one day and buy a top of the range everything, unless they're stinking rich.  So odds are Blu-ray - or HD-DVD or a similar HD-TV benefitting standard - will gain acceptance, because people will expect it to become adopted.  Why release CDs when people have tape decks at home?  Etc.

 

Offline Deepblue

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Ugh. Fine, be stuck in your rut.

 

Offline Grey Wolf

And you can stay stuck in yours, Deepblue.
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline Turnsky

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  • huh?.. Who?.. hey you kids, git off me lawn!
an SD-TV would be your oldish type CRT's, and some older Rear projection and projectors, they have a max resolution of 740x480, which is 480i, the first series of digital TV's start at 480p, the HD era tv's are roughly 720p, 1080i, and 1080p, upwards, the latter two are the preferred choice of the next-gen consoles in order to get "the best results" from games.

get a video card with a TV-out, and a 51cm SD-TV (which is a little bigger than a 19" monitor) then run a game, with the display outputting to them both, at the same resolution (try a benchmark of 1024x768 for both) and see the difference between the two.

and as somebody that works with graphics a helluva lot, i know the difference between a SD-TV and what are coming closer and closer to the computer monitor that's sitting on my desk.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2006, 08:37:01 pm by Turnsky »
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Offline Deepblue

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Actually 720p is the preferred choice for next-gen consoles.

 

Offline Turnsky

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  • huh?.. Who?.. hey you kids, git off me lawn!
Actually 720p is the preferred choice for next-gen consoles.

it's still HD, though. that's my point. 720p may be the preferred choice by the manufacturer, but with most things as done by the end user, the higher choice is always better.
   //Warning\\
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do not torment the sleep deprived artist, he may be vicious when cornered,
in case of emergency, administer caffeine to the artist,
he will become docile after that,
and less likely to stab you in the eye with a mechanical pencil
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Offline Deepblue

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No... 1080i is interlaced. And 1080p is godawful costly both in money and in console power use.