Author Topic: Loki  (Read 40568 times)

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Offline Raven2001

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It does use a high poly mesh yes... to generate the bump map in Z-Brush (which is the same as a normal map btw :P), and nothing else. The high poly mesh is just a reference for a 3d modelling program, nothing more. The game itself only uses that mesh I showed above+textures.
That was just to prove my point that well done bump maps DO produce the same results (on practical terms) as minor greebles

And like I said, I dont mind sticking to cannon, and im not saying that is a wrong aproach. Im just saying that people in general have a tendency to turn ships into greeblefests, which is uncalled for in a game.
And you can show me pics about the game engine supporting a bazillion polys in spheres that have the same texture, but we both know thats not how things go practically. Practically, you will have several different types of ships on your screen (more different textures), weapon\engine effects flying around, etc.
Yeah, I know you were waiting for a very nice sig, in which I was quoting some very famous scientist or philosopher... guess what?!? I wont indulge you...

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We might as well have the best quality we can until bump mapping and normal mapping are available to us. When that happens, you can all optimize from there, remove some polys here, insert a bump map there. Focus on right now. I say we're fine as we are now.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2007, 06:49:46 am by Gregster2k »

 

Offline Vasudan Admiral

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The point of that 230 000 poly object pic is to show that polycount is not a particularly problematic area for FS these days. You've been saying that adding all the detail that's on the Zeus and other ships is unnessecary because well done bumpmaps might be able to do it just as well - and perhaps they might.

However, when you weigh up the relative performance costs of a reasonably sized bumpmap and a reasonable count of a few hundred/(thousands even) extra polys, I think the extra polys will come out as a much more efficient way to get to that level of detail than adding a bumpmap will. :p

Using the example of being in game - you want to replace the relatively pronounced geometric details on the Zeus with a bumpmap right?

Well, aside from the fact that this large bumpmap will be far more of a detriment to performance than the geometric detail was (even when it's not on-screen it's being stored in memory), it will only be able to represent smaller detail than the geometric stuff did. As such, it has even less visability in-game, and so by your own reasoning, there's no point in having the bumpmap either, and therefore no reason to have removed that geometric detail in the first place! :p

What I reckon should happen is that those people with machines that can run with full detail in-game, should - and also should be able to get the full benefit from that. High res textures, high poly models, capped off with a purdy bumpmap. For those without such fancy hardware, they can just lower the settings a notch or two.
Provide as much of a greeble fest as you like, and let the user decide how much they want to see. Reasonably good future proofing in a way. ;)
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Well, aside from the fact that this large bumpmap will be far more of a detriment to performance than the geometric detail was (even when it's not on-screen it's being stored in memory)
What I reckon should happen is that those people with machines that can run with full detail in-game, should - and also should be able to get the full benefit from that. High res textures, high poly models, capped off with a purdy bumpmap. For those without such fancy hardware, they can just lower the settings a notch or two.
Provide as much of a greeble fest as you like, and let the user decide how much they want to see. Reasonably good future proofing in a way. ;)

I can't agree enough. From the standpoint of a FreeSpace gamer, my 1GB RAM system chokes on FSO. I am against anything that increases the game's RAM consumption. Video card strain on the other hand? Ha...bring it on. I couldn't care less about video card polycount strain (GPU processing, that is). But eating my system memory and me ending up swapping bump maps to disk? Hell no. The less swap file usage this game takes, the better. My poor hard drive's already dying >_> --- BTW, I use a Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB in case you were wondering

 

Offline Raven2001

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However, when you weigh up the relative performance costs of a reasonably sized bumpmap and a reasonable count of a few hundred/(thousands even) extra polys, I think the extra polys will come out as a much more efficient way to get to that level of detail than adding a bumpmap will. :p

Using the example of being in game - you want to replace the relatively pronounced geometric details on the Zeus with a bumpmap right?

Well, aside from the fact that this large bumpmap will be far more of a detriment to performance than the geometric detail was (even when it's not on-screen it's being stored in memory), it will only be able to represent smaller detail than the geometric stuff did. As such, it has even less visability in-game, and so by your own reasoning, there's no point in having the bumpmap either, and therefore no reason to have removed that geometric detail in the first place! :p


Not all the detail in the Zeus is unnecessary, like I mentioned before. What adds to a general shape is more than welcome, and in fact efficient. The problem is those smallish details that are minimal\secondary... that is teh relatively non-pronounced bevels. THOSE small bevels are the issue, and ive stressed it well enough I believe, so please dont hiperbolize on what I say :P

And my reasoning is exactly what you described, with one catch: you mentioned shadows before, mentioned that a bump map wont be able to produce them (which is true), but that on the other hand the polygon details will (true as well). What your forgetting is that when we have the shadows, you will see how much performance will suffer just because you have all those smallish bevels casting shadows all over the place (shadows which btw, would be minimal and barely visible, if at all, that is, redundant)... something that wouldnt happen in the case of using a bump texture, which makes it a much more viable option performance wise. And in the ned, it would have the same visability in-game as having those polys, in practical terms.

Everyone on the gaming industry chooses bumps over poly detail, no matter how harder it is to generate those bump maps, and thats for a reason: creates the best visual quality\performance balance.

And about the user choosing what he wants to see in-game, thats an utopy imo. The user can choose which type of textures to render (glows, specs, bumps, etc), he can also choose the LODs he wants to see. However he cant choose what each LOD comes with. If you take for instance the Loki (which IMO, is better than the Zeus, on the issues im defending). If the user has bumpmaps available to him (that would simulate many details perfectly), so he doesnt need the current LOD0, he is stuck with the LOD1 that is the FS retail (that is, although he gets rid of those tiny details that the bump map can handle, he is also stuck with that non-perfected shape that misses the refinement in shape that LOD0 has). Note that by shape, I mean the overall form and "motion" of the object in question.
Yeah, I know you were waiting for a very nice sig, in which I was quoting some very famous scientist or philosopher... guess what?!? I wont indulge you...

Why, you ask? What, do I look like a Shivan to you?!?


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Offline Vasudan Admiral

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At the moment the issue is polys vs bumpmaps - shadows are way way off, and so shouldn't really be introduced here. And even then, if it becomes an issue, they can be turned off or can use a lower LOD pretty easily.

And where are you drawing the line between unpronounced and pronounced details?
The smallest ones I can see are the shallow recess on the underside of the neck and the missiles sticking out of the pods - those are where I could get away without as much detailing as I did use, and if I were to redo the thing now then I might do just that.

All the rest though is pronounced enough to become quite visible in-game when the specular light hits it. Perhaps when we see what bumpmapping can and cannot do in the FSO engine we can make a better distinction, but as is, I see very few bits of geometry that could be done via bumpmap. Even then, the parts that could be bumpmapped instead are simply not going to harm performance.

About the user-defined performance - they have complete control over the model detail slider in game. That controls at what range the lods will switch around, so they'll only ever get the highest detail when it's close enough to be seen.

Also, what kind of a detail selection would that example be? :p
The retail loki in LOD1 with added bumpmaps I am quite sure will take up more memory and render more slowly than the HTL loki without bumpmaps - so switching off bumpmaps would be a far better choice for gaining performance than using LOD1 and would look better as well. :p
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Offline Raven2001

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Yes shadows are way off, but you DID mention them as a means of justifying those details...

The line im drawing is perfectly visible in the pics Ive posted above... the armour plates and details arent modelled in, just the overall shape. Im sure you can deduce from that what is unpronounced in the Zeus.
That also explains the kind of detail selection I was talking about.

And yes, obviously the LOD1+bump maps would be more performance hindering than the HTL Loki... in fact, on a same note, obviously every single game dev company is doing everything wrong because you are not... :rolleyes:

To be honest im pretty tired of having to discuss circular logics, so from my part this discussion is over. Time will prove me right.
Yeah, I know you were waiting for a very nice sig, in which I was quoting some very famous scientist or philosopher... guess what?!? I wont indulge you...

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Offline Vasudan Admiral

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Well look - you've made your point, and I won't model in details as tiny as the ones I have been on future fighters. However my point that bumpmaps will be more of a performance drain than that detail is still valid. You are talking a couple of hundred extra polys vs an entire bumpmap. It's just no contest.

The bottom line is simply that we give them the lot, and the end users will pick what they do and do not want to see. It needs no further discussion.
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Offline Black Wolf

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Err, it's all well and good going on about how bumpmaps will save the world, but ladt I checked we didn't have bumpmaps yet. So the current equation is:

More polies = more detail right now + more accurately rendered detail forever + less performance strain + less memory usage

vs.

Bumpmaps = more detail at some as yet unknown point in the future + less accurately rendered detail (accurate in the sense of how it behaves, shadows and parallax and whatnot) + greater performance strain (everyone should know by now a few hundred or even a thousand polies makes practically zero difference to performance in the FSO engine) + greater memory use.

I really don't see the contest.

As for the argument that you wont see the very small detail, well, 90% of the time you're right. But when you do see it, say a small edge on an indent somewhere catches the light and shines, or a flipping fighter gets a bumped face lit on three sides in sequence, it looks good. Really good. Definitely worth the very, very minor increase in GPU load, with the only real cost being an increase in construction time, and since VA's building these anyway, surely that's his own time to "waste"?
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Offline Vasudan Admiral

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Hey! BW! Where've you been mate? It's been aaaaages.  :D

Hmm, I think your custom text....kinda... answers that question actually. ;)
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Offline TrashMan

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WEll..compeling arguments, there's no question about it.

Tis not the problem of making more detailed ships - the question is when is it enough? 1000 polys? 2000? 5000? 10000? 1000000?

My only concern is to make the ship look good - if textures can convey that good enough (depends on what you consider good enough tough) then I won't bother adding greebling. If hte models is such that it requires 100000 poyls to look good, then I will use  each and every one of them.

Maby it's just me, but I consider relatively flat surfaces EFFECTIVE in tearms of ship design. Having openings every 2 inches and open pipes and wires sticking everywhere on a armored warships jsut doesn't look right ot me. (altough it may look nice).
but then again, this all varries from design to design and what you want to convey with it...
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Offline jr2

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Maby it's just me, but I consider relatively flat surfaces EFFECTIVE in tearms of ship design. Having openings every 2 inches and open pipes and wires sticking everywhere on a armored warships jsut doesn't look right ot me. (altough it may look nice).
but then again, this all varries from design to design and what you want to convey with it...

Seconded.  If you need ventilation, put a grill there (like for example over a modern tank engine compartment).
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 03:15:15 am by jr2 »

 

Offline Col. Fishguts

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That's where it mainly depends on personal taste.

See, I like seemingly unnecessary greeblies. They look cool (which is the more important reason), and second, they give the viewer a better sense of scale of the big ships.
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Offline Raven2001

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Yes but were talking about fighters here... on big ships the matter is entirely different (you actually get to SEE those greebles once in a while, not to mention you gain a better sence of realism when you fly trough them... so in fact those greebles arent "unnecessary"). On fighters however its pure redundancy


More polies = more detail right now + more accurately rendered detail forever + less performance strain + less memory usage

vs.

Bumpmaps = more detail at some as yet unknown point in the future + less accurately rendered detail (accurate in the sense of how it behaves, shadows and parallax and whatnot) + greater performance strain (everyone should know by now a few hundred or even a thousand polies makes practically zero difference to performance in the FSO engine) + greater memory use.

I really don't see the contest.

Your completely right... right now. Hopefully in a couple of years we will have more advanced graphics available to us on FSO: besides the already mentioned bumpmaps, we will have shadows (which we already had, but were dropped because of (ahah) performance strains because of (ahah) too many polys casting shadows...), more advanced and efficient lightning, etc.

You are overly concerned with the memory use of textures atm... Im concerned with render issues of overquantity of polys in the near future. So if im getting it right, since right now more polys are the only way to get detail, even if redundant, we keep with it, and in the future we remodel our ships? Ok, if you are all willing to go trough it all again, dont let me stop you.

And yes, right now a few thounsand polys make practically no difference in FSO. However, in some (if not many) missions you wont have just a "few" thounsands more in front of you. You may have a 2 or 3 fighters right in front of you, then some freighters\transports a bit farther away, etc. Do the maths, and that will exceed a few thousands. And this happens all the time, especially in escort missions (which arent few).

Oh, and buying another Gb of Ram is actually cheaper than buying a new processor and FX card... much cheaper.

I really dont see the contest.

Of course you can all jump at me, because im thinking too far ahead, and that im being too wishfull of our SCP team, and fact is I am. Ive done it before, and they proved my faith was well placed (for those that dont remember, I was already doing HTL models, before the SCP team was seriously thinking of implementing it in game. Again, defending that we would be able to use more polys in the future, despite everyones "bickering"). So yeah Ill gladly keep this gambit. :P
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 04:08:35 am by Raven2001 »
Yeah, I know you were waiting for a very nice sig, in which I was quoting some very famous scientist or philosopher... guess what?!? I wont indulge you...

Why, you ask? What, do I look like a Shivan to you?!?


Raven is a god.

 

Offline Turambar

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well, when that day comes, we'll just use our really nice high-poly models to generate normal maps for the somewhat lower poly models.

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Offline Raptor

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(looks between VA and Raven...
...
...
...Sighs at another debate)

Guys, chill out.  Your both right.  Good texture work can save the use of polys, but conversely, a detailed model gives it that realism.

Personally, I side with VA, being a modeller first and a texturer a distant second.  Plus any way to avoid having the pc grind to a halt as it struggles to juggle several huge textures is good.

'Bump mapping' sounds like it can add an extra layer of realism, but to me it needs the high quality model as a base.  So, lets cool our turbos, and praise VA for his absolutely brillient model work.  Raven pulled that Ravana out of the bag (BTW, that fixed yet?), so we all know how good you both are.

Ah, sudden idea.  VA does all the Terran stuff, and Raven goes over the Shivans... should help set them even more apart... ;7
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Offline Snail

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I really shouldn't have declassified that post... :nervous:

 

Offline taylor

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I wanted to reply point-by-point to this, but no doubt the post would be far too long, so I'm just going to summarize things (sort of).  VA has already asked my opinion on this and I'm going to give some of that same info here as well as add a few new points...

You have to remember that almost all the work at optimization has gone into the texture side of things, both in rendering performance and memory usage.  It's not really going to be any better than it is now, and is in fact going to get much worse.  Remember that normal maps aren't easily compressed, since the compression utterly destroys quality in the case of a normal map.  That means most/all normal maps are NOT going to be compressed.  Adding a normal map like that to a fighter is going to, in the best case, more than double the memory requirements for that model.  Normal maps are going to comprise from anywhere to 65-80% of the models texture memory requirements.  That is a complete killer considering the already extremely high memory usage that we already have from textures.  All of the work that can be done to improve memory usage has already been done, there isn't much more that we can get out of it.  And memory usage is only going to increase in the future.  Shaders require memory, new animations require more memory, more explosion types require more memory, render targets require more memory, FSAA requires more memory.  And we also have possible future support for light maps and height maps which is also going to increase memory usage that much more.  Memory usage is our killer, it's only going to get worse, and everyone has to not only realize that but also plan for it.

A normal map is also not the same as any other map since it requires much more processing work to render.  It means per-pixel lighting, and that costs GPU performance, and it also requires more CPU time to compute the tangent space coords for each and every object that gets rendered, every single frame.  A diffuse/glow/spec map, combined, cost about as much performance as adding a normal map.  It does add more realizism, but it most certainly is not coming free, even if you exclude the large memory requirements.  A normal map isn't going to add much in the way of detail to a fighter than an extra 1-2k of polys will.  The difference is that using the normal map will actually be slower than going with the extra polys.  So don't depend on normal maps to save you from anything, because they won't.  They will add extra detail to a model, but if it's not on a large ship then that is going to be wasted memory and wasted processing time.  Shaders will allow more efficient use of normal maps, but it's not going to do anything for the memory usage.  For every normal map that you add you are taking something away, whether that be better explosions or more weapons effects or whatever, it's going to cost you.

I gave VA some basic poly counts that I want to see in any current fighter and bomber.  Those in the 8-10k range for fighters, and 9-12k for bombers.  My counts for larger vessels are up in the air, but I fully expect 25-40k to be the norm before long.  I mentioned already that optimizations have been done to increase the performance of texture handling, but almost nothing has been done for geometry yet.  There are numerous areas in the model rendering code which are creating bottlenecks.  The collision detection code is also rather crap with regards to large poly models.  Object culling and render order are also something that is horribly wrong with the code.  These are things that are going to get fixed.  Even if the hi-poly models are a little bit of a strain now, future code upgrades probably won't even flinch at them.  I already use 60k+ models for testing, so handling large poly models is possible even with the current code.  And it is only going to improve.  Vastly.

We can always tie in better detail control to allow users to tone down the poly hit if needed.  But what we can't do is take a lower-poly model and make it look better later on.  Use textures efficiently and creatively, and then increase poly counts.  We added the code to handle textures better, but the biggest problems are in the model rendering and collision detection code.  Once we work those issues out the performance should increase significantly.  So plan ahead and give your models that extra 2-3k of poly detail now (provided it's not wasted obviously) and the code will catch up to it.  Even your basic video card these days can easily handle the poly counts that we are using, it's the code that has trouble, but that we can do something about.

Go with the the larger poly counts, texture your models efficiently, use detail boxes, avoid poly waste, avoid using normal maps unless it truely adds to the model.  These are all basic things that should not only improve the model overall, but also improve how that model works in-game.  Lighting will be enhanced with more polys, texture mapping (if done properly) will be enhanced with more polys, and general "coolness" will as well.  If you are making a model now then you might as well plan for the future, because we are.  We are planning for more models in a single frame, and more efficient collision detection, and more efficient rendering, and much improved user detail control.  If you only make your model for what you can do now then you are only hurting yourselves, because in another year those models will be low quality in comparison to what you will be able to get away with.

 

Offline Raven2001

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You didnt mention what kind of effect shadows would have on performance though

@Raptor: no the Ravana isnt fixed yet as far as I know... which is a good thing because I plan to go back to it and change some stuff here and there and make debris for it (sames gonna happen to the Hecate).
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 05:20:46 pm by Raven2001 »
Yeah, I know you were waiting for a very nice sig, in which I was quoting some very famous scientist or philosopher... guess what?!? I wont indulge you...

Why, you ask? What, do I look like a Shivan to you?!?


Raven is a god.

 

Offline taylor

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You didnt mention what kind of effect shadows would have on performance though
Assuming that we ever get shadows you mean?  :D

If it's done right then the extra polys shouldn't have much, if any, affect on shadows.  We can also just use a lower LOD for rendering the shadows anyway, since LOD1 should be near identical visually to LOD0, but without all of the little details.  But we don't render for shadows the way that things are rendered normally, since we can skip a lot of detail that isn't going to show up in the shadow map anyway.  I have still never seen the code that Bobboau did for shadows the first time, and it's possible that we can do a more efficient job of it if it's a bit more API specific anyway (there are about a half-dozen ways to do great shadows quickly in OpenGL for instance).

Adding support for shadows isn't even on my todo list though.  There are far more important, and impressive, things to work on instead.