Author Topic: World Police...  (Read 3344 times)

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Offline Grug

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http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18498056-2,00.html

Quote
MAKING no apologies for the war in Iraq, the United States reaffirmed its strike-first policy of preemption and warned Iran could pose the biggest threat to US national security.
"We may face no greater challenge from a single country than from Iran," the White House said in a 49 page blueprint called The National Security Strategy of the United States of America.

The report drew up a balance sheet of what it called US President George W. Bush's foreign policy successes and remaining "challenges" like bloody violence in Iraq and tense stand-offs over nuclear programs in Iran and North Korea.

It also warned Russia that its ties with the West depend on democratic reforms, and urged China to embrace greater political freedom - while saying that Washington will "hedge" for the possibility this does not happen.

Off to save the world before its even under an immediate threat. =/

I find this some what ironic how the US is now all about "preemptive" strikes, whereas back in the day, refused to go to war in WW2 until they were attacked directly by Empire Japan. Since that worldly event, it has seemed to breed some kind of paranoia or warped justification for invading other countries. (to the government at least) =/

 

Offline aldo_14

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I think we've already seen the consequences of a US preemptive strike based on false intelligence.......

 

Offline Nuclear1

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In the USA's defense, you can't really compare the events of WWII to today. Pearl Harbor was attacked with conventional weapons; the USA can't really "wait" to be attacked first when it comes to a suspected nuclear power that could easily kill tens of thousands of people in the one necessary first strike on the USA.
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Offline achtung

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Actually not only the US, it involves any and all nations, and that includes the Europeans.  They seem just as shook up about this as we are.
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Offline Skippy

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Offline Janos

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In the USA's defense, you can't really compare the events of WWII to today. Pearl Harbor was attacked with conventional weapons; the USA can't really "wait" to be attacked first when it comes to a suspected nuclear power that could easily kill tens of thousands of people in the one necessary first strike on the USA.

Well sure thing, as long as they have hard evidence that it is possible and most likely will happen. "Those guys could attack us! We'll attack them!" is one of the most common attitudes in history of mankind and has rarely been either A) correct or B) useful.

Pre-emptive war? Go ahead. If Iran is arming nukes and massing tank divisions on borders and withdrawing populace and infiltrating cities - all that grey phase **** - it's quite fair game. Preventative war? Uhh no thanks, that's exactly the thing that will go wrong. Plus the casus belli of "they could attack us" is not really useful in long term.
lol wtf

 

Offline phreak

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This thread title reminds me of a song

America! **** Yeah!
Comin again to save the mother****ing day, yeah!
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Offline Janos

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Actually not only the US, it involves any and all nations, and that includes the Europeans.  They seem just as shook up about this as we are.

Yeah, but most Europeans are more afraid of USA going all gun-ho on Iran than your average US citizen.

If they have short-range strategic missiles, just guess who they would nuke IF they had a working nuke and IF someone started to lob bombs and IFx1827
lol wtf

 

Offline Nuclear1

  • 211
This thread title reminds me of a song

America! **** Yeah!
Comin again to save the mother****ing day, yeah!

That's exactly what I thought when I first read the title. :D

Quote
If they have short-range strategic missiles, just guess who they would nuke IF they had a working nuke and IF someone started to lob bombs and IFx1827

Well, of course that would be the obvious first choice with Iran, and I have the (unnerving) thought that America would step up in such a case to defend her allies, Israel being one of them in this case. If Iran had prepared a nuke, then I have no doubt that the USA would do something to prevent Israel from being nuked.
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 

Offline Janos

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This thread title reminds me of a song

America! **** Yeah!
Comin again to save the mother****ing day, yeah!

That's exactly what I thought when I first read the title. :D

Quote
If they have short-range strategic missiles, just guess who they would nuke IF they had a working nuke and IF someone started to lob bombs and IFx1827

Well, of course that would be the obvious first choice with Iran, and I have the (unnerving) thought that America would step up in such a case to defend her allies, Israel being one of them in this case. If Iran had prepared a nuke, then I have no doubt that the USA would do something to prevent Israel from being nuked.

This is quite true. Using nukes against another nuclear power or against someone who is allied with USA is pretty suicidial move. As a last punch before inevitable knockout through..
The point is that even though there would be retaliation, it wouldn't propably help those who happened to be in the first city that got nuked. Hypothetical questions.
lol wtf

 

Offline Fineus

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This thread title reminds me of a song

America! **** Yeah!
Comin again to save the mother****ing day, yeah!

That's exactly what I thought when I first read the title. :D


Likewise :D

 

Offline Nuclear1

  • 211
This is quite true. Using nukes against another nuclear power or against someone who is allied with USA is pretty suicidial move. As a last punch before inevitable knockout through..
The point is that even though there would be retaliation, it wouldn't propably help those who happened to be in the first city that got nuked. Hypothetical questions.

This is really the big point. Is it worth sacrificing the first city or the first hundred thousand innocent people to justify a war?

War can be such **** sometimes.
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 

Offline WeatherOp

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This is quite true. Using nukes against another nuclear power or against someone who is allied with USA is pretty suicidial move. As a last punch before inevitable knockout through..
The point is that even though there would be retaliation, it wouldn't propably help those who happened to be in the first city that got nuked. Hypothetical questions.


Not really, I don't know if we would use nukes as retaliation. There are to many people against nukes, so that most likely if we do suffer a nuclear attack, we will not use them. And if they are banking on that, they could hit us with all they have, knowing that we will probley invade their contry and they can take even more of us with them.

We need to make it rock hard, that if we are attacked with nukes, we will use the same force on them.
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Offline achtung

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Then, somewhere in the crossfire, one of the nukes manages to veer off course and knock China, Russia, a European Nation, or one of their allies.  Then nuclear world war ensues.

Of course that's a worst case scenario.
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Offline FireCrack

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^err yeah, realy worst case...
actualy, mabye not.
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Offline Rictor

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Quote
MAKING no apologies for the war in Iraq, the United States reaffirmed its strike-first policy of preemption and warned Iran could pose the biggest threat to US national security.
"We may face no greater challenge from a single country than from Iran," the White House said in a 49 page blueprint called The National Security Strategy of the United States of America.

The report drew up a balance sheet of what it called US President George W. Bush's foreign policy successes and remaining "challenges" like bloody violence in Iraq and tense stand-offs over nuclear programs in Iran and North Korea.

It also warned Russia that its ties with the West depend on democratic reforms, and urged China to embrace greater political freedom - while saying that Washington will "hedge" for the possibility this does not happen.

I think Jonh Bolton is absolutely right on the money, just not the way he intended it. Notice the word "challenge". Not threat, challenge. That's exactly what the US faces from Russia, Iran, Venezuela, China and others. A challenge to it's power. A loss of its ability to have its will be done in every corner of the globe. The countries towards which the US is agressive are, more often than not, challenges not threats. Challenges in terms of economy (China), ideology (Iran, Venezuela), politics (Iran), media (al Jazeera and Telesur) and so on.

Of course, as any monopoly worth it's salt will tell you, challenges must be eliminated and the monopoly maintained. In this case, the monopoly on power. More importantly, a monopoly on the legitimate exercise of power. Europe has a similar mindset, though with a more diplomatic cover and softer approach. An example being how the mark of a "mature" nation, one that is "living up to its commitments" is measured by the number of foreign countries in which your troops are stationed.

 

Offline IceFire

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In the USA's defense, you can't really compare the events of WWII to today. Pearl Harbor was attacked with conventional weapons; the USA can't really "wait" to be attacked first when it comes to a suspected nuclear power that could easily kill tens of thousands of people in the one necessary first strike on the USA.
This is true...the paradigm has changed. But not completely.  Had the Japanese succeeded in their goal of completely crippling the US Pacific Fleet the effects would have been, in some ways, similar to a WMD attack.  Fortunately they never landed a complete and finishing blow on the Pacific Fleet...many ships being salvagable and all of the carriers not present. Infact the lack of carriers meant that the fleet commanders paranoia was infact much higher and one of the reasons why a fourth wave was never launched.

But you are right...the problem with holding back in isolation when there are powers out there seeking to topple you by any means and with little or no remorse means that first strike may be required to stave off a much bigger catastrophy.  So long as first strike is conducted purely with conventional means.  That said...Iraq is a disaster.  Iran and North Korea were always greater threats and Iraq was actually a counterbalance to at the very least Iran and Osama....but not anymore.
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Offline Rictor

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This thread title reminds me of a song

America! **** Yeah!
Comin again to save the mother****ing day, yeah!

That's exactly what I thought when I first read the title. :D

Quote
If they have short-range strategic missiles, just guess who they would nuke IF they had a working nuke and IF someone started to lob bombs and IFx1827

Well, of course that would be the obvious first choice with Iran, and I have the (unnerving) thought that America would step up in such a case to defend her allies, Israel being one of them in this case. If Iran had prepared a nuke, then I have no doubt that the USA would do something to prevent Israel from being nuked.

This is quite true. Using nukes against another nuclear power or against someone who is allied with USA is pretty suicidial move. As a last punch before inevitable knockout through..
The point is that even though there would be retaliation, it wouldn't propably help those who happened to be in the first city that got nuked. Hypothetical questions.


My belief is that for all the rhetoric, for all their corruption, those in power in Iran are pragmatic enough not to attempt such a suicidal course. People often simply assume that those who they disagree with are evil and insane. Bull****. Those who run Iran, even the mullahs, are invested in the progression of Iranian power and influence. The elite is made up of not only clerics but diplomats and capitalists, and all three are often the same. There is even some indication that they are on edge about Ahmadenijad's forceful tone and his effect of the stability of the Iranian economy. These people are neither insane nor suicidal. They know that Iran can repell any possible invasion, now or in the future, and a nuclear detterent, while appealing, is not really a life or death matter at the moment. Aquiring a nuke, however, would signifcantly damage Iran's position on the world stage. That's why I believe that out of simple self-interest Iran will not aquire nuclear weapons in the near future (let's say 5-10 years).

Forget America, Israel is quite capable of defending itself. And if Iran annouced tommorow that they had a nuke, by tommorow afternoon you would likely see Israeli airstrikes. Remember, Israel has nukes too, and some of the best anti-missle technologies in the world. They're not defenceless, and the entire Middle East knows this.  Attacking, even with conventional weapons, would be signing the death warrant for whichever regime backed the attack.

 

Offline karajorma

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Quote
The report drew up a balance sheet of what it called US President George W. Bush's foreign policy successes


How long do you think it took them to draw up a blank piece of paper? :D
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Offline Kosh

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Quote
Challenges in terms of economy (China),

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/HC17Dj01.html

I'd say the greatest threat to America's economic dominance are the Americans themselves.

Quote
How long do you think it took them to draw up a blank piece of paper? 

:lol:
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