[aldo_14]

I'm going to stick my neck out and say; this is Hollywood.  It's the Wackhow....Waksho....Wankso...Matrix producers.  If they wanted it to reference Bush in particular, surely it'd be set in Washington and be blatantly obvious in it?

[Ford Prefect]

No, because that would be an ugly departure from the canon. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you can't apply the film to the UK as well-- especially since that's what the graphic novel was about-- but it's a film made by Americans who have already established themselves as anti-authoritarian social critics, so I have to believe that the intention of this film was to attack the American neoconservatives, as well as the population allows itself to be face****ed by them. I don't live in the UK so I can't very well attest to the film's pertinence over there, but all I can tell you is that over here, the satire was so incredibly blatant I was laughing out loud in the theater.

[karajorma]

No, because that would be an ugly departure from the canon.

When has that ever stopped Hollywood?

[Ford Prefect]

Hollywood isn't entirely monolithic; it contains individuals who do occasionally make decisions. The Wachowski brothers made an artistic decision not to change the setting of the work in the adaptation process, and obviously the powers that be had no objection to that. I mean, these are the guys who did The Matrix; they're enthusiasts of animation and graphic novels. They probably had a great deal of respect for the original work. (Even though the creator didn't like the idea of a film.)

[BlackDove]

Err, the whole message of that movie didn't have anything to do with the UK. At all. Nobody gives a **** about the UK.

[Ford Prefect]

You should be a literature professor with that thoroughness and insight.

[Fineus]

Now now, everyone is entitled to an opinion - even if it is misguided.

[BlackDove]

You should be a literature professor with that thoroughness and insight.

Indeed.

[karajorma]

Let me ask you this. Do you really see a movie that doesn't give a **** about the UK having a character suggesting that we hold a reverse Boston Tea Party?

I'm not saying that the movie isn't referencing America. I'm saying that it has lots of references to the UK as well. Only those who have come to believe that any attack on totalitarianism is an attack on the US would claim that it was a blatant attack on the US.

If you want some purely British points.

1) The Norsefire party is an obvious reference to the National Front.
2) Sutler is a reference to Oswald Mosley rather than any particular American president.
3) The Fingermen are obviously a reference to Mosley's Blackshirts.
4) The heavy use of CCTV is more of a reference to the UK than the US as the UK has a much higher CCTV camera presence.
5) The fact that BTN has been turned into a propoganda arm of the goverment is a reference to the governments attempts to stifle the BBC every chance it gets.
6) The film references the actual 7th July Tube bombings rather than using a more general case of terrorist activity to have the tube network closed.


To claim that it's a direct attack on America is simply wrong. It's an attack on totalitarianism. It includes elements from several fascist governments. Anyone who would claim otherwise would probably claim the same thing about 1984 if they watched it for the first time today.

[Ford Prefect]

I understand what you're saying. I just think it's significant that Americans-- and the ones who created The Matrix, no less-- took an interest in this and marketed it to the American audience. I mean, of course it applies to Britain; it was a British graphic novel and it's set in Britain. But Hollywood cares first and foremost about its American audience, and I think we can be quite certain that they didn't make this film to have Americans saying, "Wow, this is exactly what's happening in the UK right now." And a lot of the references you mention couldn't very well be changed without changing the setting, which would require a departure from the graphic novel so radical it could hardly be called "V For Vendetta" anymore. In America, the film's depiction of the BTN and its reactionary pundits screamed "FOX" to us. Now, I fully understand that this may very well be, factually, a closer equivalent to the UK media than that of the US, but its effect on Americans is the same regardless, and my assertion is that this is not accidental. I don't want you to think that I'm trying to "claim" this work for America; it's just that when I look at who made this film and where it was made, combined with some references in the film, such as the color-coded alert system, that set off mental alarms for Americans, I have to read certain intentions into it. Maybe that's too postmodernist of me, I don't know.

[karajorma]

Of course the American audience are going to identify with the movie. I'm not denying that they've put things in to trigger a response in the American audience. It's just that many people act like that was all they put in. They put in just as many things designed to do that for a UK audience.

My point is that anyone who screams that it's an attack on America has missed the point. It's an attack on totalitarianism.

[Mefustae]

Rather than the movie mirroring the United States, I believe it is the United States that is mirroring the world of V...

[BlackDove]

My point is that anyone who screams that it's an attack on America has missed the point. It's an attack on totalitarianism.

No.

The fact that America is equated to totalitariansim (these days) helps your point, but the movie was released at this point in time SOLELY because it was a good jab at the US. The people who wrote it, starred in it, produced it, edited it and released it to the public never gave a **** about Totalitarianism. That's why nobody made a movie of the comic book BEFORE Bush was acting President, and it is also why it wasn't released after he left the presidency.

I'll agree, of course, that you are right and the movie is of course sending a message regarding textbook Totalitarianism, but we can equally say that it is also sending a message to the people of the UK, which was, again, not the purpose of the message they were trying to convey. To reiterate: Nobody gives a **** about the UK.

This message was directed to Americans. Not totalitarians. It's why you see people saying it's "thought provoking". They put two and two together. Something woke up in the stagnant cerebrum that associated the movie with real life. The bad thing is however, that adding two and two isn't complex mathematics, which is why the movie could have equally been marketed to a donkey and a monkey. They'd get the connection too, and I'm equally sure it would've been a raving success with that audience as well.

[Fineus]

Seems you're not making a distinction between the US and the way the US has been conducting its affairs recently.

It could be seen as a jab at any country that has been acting this way. The fact that the US seems to be the largest and most powerful of these is circumstantial. Were Australia acting in such a way - to you it'd be a good jab at Australia. You're taking it personally and you shouldn't be... you're not even in America.

[karajorma]

The fact that America is equated to totalitariansim (these days) helps your point, but the movie was released at this point in time SOLELY because it was a good jab at the US. The people who wrote it, starred in it, produced it, edited it and released it to the public never gave a **** about Totalitarianism. That's why nobody made a movie of the comic book BEFORE Bush was acting President, and it is also why it wasn't released after he left the presidency.

As I said before you'd probably claim the exact same thing were 1984 to be released right now. Or Animal Farm for that matter.

[Ford Prefect]

Seems you're not making a distinction between the US and the way the US has been conducting its affairs recently.

I would argue that the way in which a nation conducts its affairs are what define that nation. America's actions, not its abstract principles, have the greatest effect on the course of human events.

[Janos]

My point is that anyone who screams that it's an attack on America has missed the point. It's an attack on totalitarianism.

No.

The fact that America is equated to totalitariansim (these days) helps your point, but the movie was released at this point in time SOLELY because it was a good jab at the US. The people who wrote it, starred in it, produced it, edited it and released it to the public never gave a **** about Totalitarianism. That's why nobody made a movie of the comic book BEFORE Bush was acting President, and it is also why it wasn't released after he left the presidency.

Hmmmm:

The Wachowski brothers were known to be huge fans of the graphic novel V for Vendetta, and first wrote a draft for the script in the 1990s before they worked on The Matrix, with which V for Vendetta shares some thematic elements.

HMMMMMM

I'll agree, of course, that you are right and the movie is of course sending a message regarding textbook Totalitarianism, but we can equally say that it is also sending a message to the people of the UK, which was, again, not the purpose of the message they were trying to convey. To reiterate: Nobody gives a **** about the UK.

Thank you for this awesome insight

This message was directed to Americans. Not totalitarians. It's why you see people saying it's "thought provoking". They put two and two together. Something woke up in the stagnant cerebrum that associated the movie with real life. The bad thing is however, that adding two and two isn't complex mathematics, which is why the movie could have equally been marketed to a donkey and a monkey. They'd get the connection too, and I'm equally sure it would've been a raving success with that audience as well.

we
are
not
all
americans
goddamnit

And if you manage to equal mass graves, symbols resembling crosses, human testing, concentration camps, nightly raids, killing minorities, NSDAPesque colour schemes and corrupt security forces with George Bush then oh good God

[Ford Prefect]

The point of such works is not to say "This is our society". It's extrapolating on the current situation by taking it to one possible end. Like I said, everyone believes that totalitarianism happens to other people, but films like this are written to remind us that there are no chosen people, and that we are always in danger of allowing it to happen to us. All groups of people contain the potential for all the same patterns.

[Sandwich]

Mein Gott, people! You're really, really up in arms about this, aren't you?

I just saw the movie last night.

It's not an attack on ANYthing or ANYone. It classically pulls off what we love about Freespace; it asks dozens of questions and leaves it up to the player/viewer to answer them. That's it. If you want to get down to specifics, sure, it villifies totallitarian governments. But in the same breath, it also villifies proactive security measures. And yet on the other hand, it portrays an out-and-out terrorist as a poetic madman, who nevertheless does have plenty cause to be mad. Even Evee is not left innocent, since she after all is the one who pulls the lever. Heck, I'd have to say that the most innocent people there are the detectives, who are genuinely trying to do their jobs, and yet are willing to realize that they had it wrong when faced with certain facts.

Anyway, the best line in the movie, IMO, was when the detectives were going over the service record of what's-his-face, and they read "...Afghanistan, Syria, pre- and post-, ..." - awesome.

[Goober5000]

Pre- and post- what?  Ruinous heap?