[Prophet]

And more exsactly, the part "They were like the others: strange, hideous, resisting, fighting" others what?, the Shivan are the only race that the Ancients meet, so when they say: "When the destroyers came for us, we attacked." they refers to that class of destroyer... Could be the Lucifer-class or... Could be a Sathanas class which shields, the Shivans at that moment, the shivans could using shields on his super destroyers at the cost of firepower. of cource, the beams not even exist.

Thats not right. Then Ancients eliminated countless of other races. That's what "the others" means, the other races they concured. And they refer Shivans as "The Destroyers", 'cos they kind of like destroyed the Ancients...

[Carl]

right. "destroyers" in that context does not mean the ship class, it means the shivans in general.

[ShivanSpS]

Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years, our empire expanded. For so long, we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long, never did we encounter advanced life.

And we travelled faster and farther, spreading in our galaxy; and before long, we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited. And then there would be nowhere else to go.

And we discovered subspace. It gave us our galaxy, and it gave us the universe. And we saw other advanced life; and we subdued it, or we crushed it. In months, the elimination of billions of years of evolution on a similar but slower path. With subspace, our empire would surely know no boundaries.

They say "For so long, never did we encounter advanced life".

[aldo_14]

They say "For so long, never did we encounter advanced life".

And then they did thanks to travelling via subspace (exactly how the Ancients expanded is one of the fuzzier things of the monologues; it implies non-subspace FTL of some sort), and blew it up - And we saw other advanced life; and we subdued it, or we crushed it.  I'm not sure exactly what your point is here?

[ShivanSpS]

When they say "And we saw other advanced life" I think that two are they and the Shivans...

But lets back to the other part...

When the destroyers came for us, we attacked. Never had we been defeated. They were like the others: strange, hideous, resisting, fighting. Only these were not like the others: They did not die.

Now, when say "Only these were not like the others: They did not die" Now... or all Shivan Ships have shields or the Ancients has been destroyed by a fleet of Lucifer-class or other class and they are calling Destroyer to that class...

And the Ancients5 give me the razon....

There is little left for us. Little time. But much irony.

We did discover they are not invulnerable. The destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed.

But we have no way to deliver the hurt. We have the knowledge, but not the means. And so this is our legacy:

In subspace, they cannot use their shields. And into subspace, they can be tracked.

Now, they are talking in plural, so again, or All Shivan ships have shields or they has been destroy by a shielded fleet of destroyers-class, could be the Lucifers, Sathanas, none know.

Well all of this to say, The Shielding system are a old tecnology and become useless thanxs to the Beam cannons. And they ambicion for more firepower.

[Prophet]

Dude. You are taking the monologues too literally. When Shivans wiped the floor with the Ancients, it doesn't mean that Ancients didn't mange to down single Shivan ship. They were generally a bit more adanced than Terrans. So they likely had at least meson bombs, or similar WMD's. There's a whole bunch of dead Shivans for you when one of those blows up.
The Ancients most likely could have downed Shivans cap ships (because they were unshielded), but in reality it was nearly impossible because of the Shivan fighters and Bombers. They really could not do anything to stop the shielded Shivan fighters, so the capships were virtually untoucheable under their fighterscreens. Thats what it means "They did not die". The Shivans were an unbeatable enemy to the Ancients, not because they were invoulnerable, but because they were unable to fight them effectively.

And nothing indicates that there were more than one Lucifer that killed Ancients (thought there could as well been more). When Ancients say "they", it doesn't mean lots of Lucys. It means ****load of Shivans. Thats ofcourse just IMO. But it seems to be the generally accepted theory.

[karajorma]

When they say "And we saw other advanced life" I think that two are they and the Shivans...

Wrong.

Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years, our empire expanded. For so long, we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long, never did we encounter advanced life.

And we travelled faster and farther, spreading in our galaxy; and before long, we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited. And then there would be nowhere else to go.

And we discovered subspace. It gave us our galaxy, and it gave us the universe. And we saw other advanced life; and we subdued it, or we crushed it. In months, the elimination of billions of years of evolution on a similar but slower path. With subspace, our empire would surely know no boundaries.

It does not sound like they are describing the Shivans there. I find it hard to believe that they destroyed the shivans and subdued them until Shivans started sending destroyers instead of smaller ship classes. Furthermore the comment about the Shivans being on a slower evolutionary path makes little sense as the monologues are being spoken by someone aware of the course of the entire war. They know that the Shivans weren't inferior to them.

[Dark Hunter]

I always believed that when they said "they did not die", it meant that the Ancients had no weapons that could pierce shields (think entire fleet armed with ML-16's). This is just a theory, but it makes some sense. How did we defeat the Shivans? By assimilating their tech. Maybe that never occured to the Ancients except at the very end.
It is also important that the Lucifer's sheilds don't work in subspace, but neither do any single ships' sheilds. I don't think they were referring only to the Lucifer when they said that.

[ShivanSpS]

But, what about Ancients5?

There is little left for us. Little time. But much irony.

We did discover they are not invulnerable. The destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed.

But we have no way to deliver the hurt. We have the knowledge, but not the means. And so this is our legacy:

In subspace, they cannot use their shields. And into subspace, they can be tracked.

"We did discover they are not invulnerable. The destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed."

"In subspace, they cannot use their shields. And into subspace, they can be tracked"

Now, Here, they are talking about a Shielded Ship, and they say "Destroyers", so....

EDIT: Well... They could refering to the fighters too... but that means that the Ancients are very... weak? -in tecnology- I also find hard to belive that a race that expanded so much and created a subspace tecnologies like the knossos, be soo bad in weaponry.... Anyway, none knows...

EDIT2: The only explanation is that they never encounter other race, that the only way, no war, no demand for superior weaponry... but this leds us back to ancients2...

"When the destroyers came for us, we attacked. Never had we been defeated. They were like the others: strange, hideous, resisting, fighting. Only these were not like the others: They did not die."

Who are the "others".

[Mars]

The "Destroyers" are certainly symbolic- they don't say superdestroyers- which is what the Lucifer is, and they don't say Juggernaught- the Sathanas. Plus refering to a ship class would break the poetry of the monolouges

[aldo_14]

When they say "And we saw other advanced life" I think that two are they and the Shivans...

Wrong, because of "the elimination of billions of years of evolution on a similar but slower path".

I'd note; Shivans.  Shiva; the Hindu god of destruction (but also of regeneration ).  Hence; the destroyers.

The reasoning for the Shivans being so superior to the ancients is twofold; firstly, the Shivans being a much more advanced race, pure and simple.  Secondly, the Ancients not having the impetus to develop Shivan-level technology because they were attacking species that were less developed than they were (you could say the Shivans are mirroring this in attacking the Ancients and later Terrans and Vasudans).

Also, I'd suggest 'they would not die' refers more to the species than individual ships.  If you interpret the monologues literally, then it indicates the Ancients colonised the entire galaxy, which kind of contradicts the stated extent of their empire in FS2.

[ShivanSpS]

hmmm yes this have sence... and... welll someone noticed that in this way that the Shivans at the end of FS2 could be the new "Ancients"? A race that are very expanded and only find inferior races... That could be why thay dont whant to fight the Terrans and Vasudans anymore.

[Prophet]

Could be. But in the end of FS1 the dude suggests that the Ancients were not the first cicilization Shivans destroyed. That they are the great destroyers, but also the great preservers. Meaning they kill off any race who grows too big and messes with the zen of the universe, or some other ying&yang stuff. Basicly, we know what they do - they destroy races - but why they do it, has been open for debate since the beginning of times.

[StratComm]

But the Shivans, as far as we can tell, don't colonize.  They don't go about wrecking undeveloped worlds to farther extend the reaches of their empire.  The Shivans react to either the ability to use Subspace and thus supercede life on faraway worlds or to conflict between races (Ancients vs lesser races, Terrans vs Vasudans) and only then do they come in and wipe out the offending species.  What certainly didn't happen is that the shivans - for any reason - "didn't want to fight the Terrans and Vasudans anymore," as you'll recall in both instances their advance was halted by the absolute newest tech available to the alliance.  That doesn't mean they are unwilling - or incapable - of responding to that development with even bigger and more powerful weapons.

As to the "and they did not die" point in the Ancient monologues, that certainly means the race and not the ships.  The ancients were roving around the galaxy exterminating not just civilizations but entire worlds of life to replace it with their own.  A civilization dying to them would mean that race becoming extinct.  The Shivans, unlike all the races they had subdued before, just kept coming, in numbers and with technology that the Ancients simply could not stop.  In time, they were simply overwhelmed.

[aldo_14]

Frankly, we don't have a clue what the Shivan do, which is why they're such a good enemy.  Do they have a vast existing empire and just occasionally strike out beyond it to identify and prevent any potential threats halfway across the galaxy ala the modern US (to generalize)?  Who knows.

Albiet, I'm not sure the Ancients were just exterminators.  The monologue has the phrase And we subdued it or we crushed it.  For me, the former (combined with the clear difference indicated by 'or crushed') indicates they might have been into the odd bit of enslavement.  Perhaps, even, with the Vasudans.

I think the idea that the Shivans act as a sort of galacitic natural selection force, requiring species to adapt, unify (in the TV case) and progress or die, is an interesting one.  As is their timing, apparently (well, admittedly we only have 3 examples) attacking at a time that coincides with conflict involving subspace-faring races.

[Fenrir]

Only two examples, really. The 3rd time around, we sought them out (rather, Bosch and co. did).

[karajorma]

"When the destroyers came for us, we attacked. Never had we been defeated. They were like the others: strange, hideous, resisting, fighting. Only these were not like the others: They did not die."

Who are the "others".

Every other race they had defeated.

[aldo_14]

Only two examples, really. The 3rd time around, we sought them out (rather, Bosch and co. did).

Well, we opened the door.  Who knows what prompted them to step through?

[Mars]

Captin Aurthur Roemieg (spelling iss horrible).