[Steel01]

Can I just ask that you read the page I linked to?

[IceFire]

Alcohol = evil.

thank the God I'm not ruler of hte world, for you would be exectued if caught drunk or stoned.

Just so we're clear...you have drank before?  And gotten drunk?

[Flipside]

Can I just ask that you read the page I linked to?

I did, it did nothing for me, once again, it mentions alcoholism, abuse of the beverage. No-one here is arguing that being drunk reguarly is wrong, that doesn't mean alcohol is wrong. I, for one, am dead against people drinking and driving at all, but that doesn't mean I'm against people drinking in moderation.

My problem is with the association that alcohol=evil, is spurious. Drinking to the point of losing control could be considered as evil, though I prefer to think of it as dangerous. However, walking into a bar and arresting people for it is a whole other matter, not because of the dangers, but because of the hypocrisy. And, I hold that opinion whilst not having had anything more than a small glass of alcohol at Christmas or New Year for about 6 years now. But simply stomping into a Bar and arresting people for being drunk is a really stupid way of dealing with the problem, Prohibition pushed the problem underground last time, it will do so again this time, and then it will be far far harder to help the addicts, and far more difficult to monitor drinking habits and problems. At least whilst people are drinking in the Bar, the Police can do what they do in the UK and wait outside to see who tries to get in a car, I don't have a problem with that at all.

People wandering in the streets can be dangerous, but once more, that is more the realm of people with drinking problems not people who simply enjoy a drink from time to time. I've always been against chastising the guilty alongside the innocent, that is also a sin, as far as I'm concerned. Remember, people who are Drunk may not be walking home, or driving home, they may catch public transport or be getting a lift home with a Designated Driver. If you arrest all people who simply dared to have a glass or two too many, who may, for example, be celebrating their Birthday and only ever do this once a year, how can that be justified as the right thing to do, especially if they have a safe means to return home? Simply writing off alcohol and pretending the Bible is against even having a glass of wine is wrong, it is misinterpretation. The communion, in the eyes of Catholics, involves the transformation of wine into the Blood of Christ, and that takes place in a church.

Whilst I understand your concerns about alcoholism, I'm afraid that trying to turn it into a religous crusade against any intake of alcohol whatsoever just doesn't ride with me at all.

[Steel01]

I am a Independent Baptist; I stand on the KJV, and have no qualms about it. I will take a stand when I can.
Let me say one last thing.

brain cells are the only cells that do not reproduce ...
according to studies by Dr. Melvin H. Kinsley, brain damage occurs progressively from THE VERY FIRST DRINK

The Bible has been proven true numerous times. This is no exception.
Thanks for your time.

[Flipside]

http://www.docguide.com/dg.nsf/DGNews/670CECC966263FE9852566AB00508BB2
http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/14738?fulltext=true&print=yes
http://cwx.prenhall.com/bookbind/pubbooks/morris4/medialib/readings/nerves.html
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/22/1728_55460

It's amazing how common that misconception is to be honest

[Goober5000]

I am a Independent Baptist; I stand on the KJV, and have no qualms about it. I will take a stand when I can.

Steel, your zeal is commendable but your focus is misplaced IMHO.  I think KJV-only-ism causes many people to stumble, not because it's wrong, but because it causes them to take their focus off God and turn it toward nitpicking and legalism.  For instance, the page you linked to is long on emotional appeal and short on scripture.

The KJV is good for a lot of things, like poetry and traditional quotes like Luke 2, but it's not well suited for other things, like personal study, simply because it's written in outmoded language.  I recommend checking out some other versions, like NIV or NASB or RSV, and just asking God to show you stuff.  I'm sure the KJV isn't the only accurate translation out there.  God's Word isn't that fragile.

[Nuke]

drunks arent worthy of my hate. really i hate people who own cars far more, kill them! i think this can be a form of discrimination. it means that the cops will target the drunkest person. (anyone who goes to bars knows the type, the one thats there every day and sounds like barney from the simpsons. i find this is discrimination against alchoholics. furthermore this goes along the lines of police becoming judges, i dont like the idea of cops getting to decide who gets arrested. furthermore it might be more cost effective to simply have the cops give the person a ride home, rather than taking him to the drunk tank. i also dont think a fine is fair, an night in jail is punishment enough. an arreest should not be the only police tool for maintaining order. fear of punishment doesnt seem to work in the case of getting drunk. also there are other more peacefull ways to prevent drunken driving. such as bars providing a "drunk van" or issuing free bus tokens or cab vouchers. many cab companies offer reduced fares, or free rides to people who go out drinking. another way is to encourage drivers to not take their cars to the bar.  limit parking space to designated drivers only or put tire-popper spikes in the bar parking lot that may be controlled by the bartenders. surely funding regular sting operations and jailing peope maay be more expensive than alternative means. also id rather police officers look for real crime, than waste time sitting at a bar, waiting for somone do do something stupid.

[Blue Lion]

I've never drank, not for any religious reason. Drink or don't. Leave that part of it alone. Let's talk about the joy of it being illegal to be drunk in a bar. Twas funny.

[Flipside]

Heck, I've got nothing against what the guy chooses to believe, I'm not an overtly religious man myself, but I respect religion in others. But that site blames 35% of rapes on Alcohol for example, personally I blame 100% of rapes on rapists. I have a natural tendency against pointing at one thing and saying this is todays great evil, that way lay Jack Thompson.

[Steel01]

Goober,
There are a couple of books I would like to point you toward. Copies aren't that hard to find and e-copies can be found if needed.
An Understandable History of the Bible by Samuel C. Gipp
Final Authority by William P. Grady

Please read one or both of these, they show how the KJV was translated (openly) and how the RSV, the one all other translations are based off of, was translated (behind closed doors).
I now stand on the KJV and will always stand on the KJV.

PS. Flipside: You have to admit that alcohol causes a person to do things they would not normally do.

[Deepblue]

Drinking water in Jerusalem would be vastly more devastating to the body than drinking a fermented drink. As such, I believe there is a difference between getting drunk and drinking for sustenance in biblical terms. On the other hand, in the modern world where clean water is plentiful for the most part, alcoholic consumption is solely for inebriation, and as such, pretty damn stupid.

[Flipside]

I'd say there are two schools of thought on the effects of alcohol on people...

Some people see it as an inhibition breaker, it makes people do things they are often tempted to do, but their own sense of morals and or decorum holds them back, this depends on whether you hold to the idea that thinking a girl attractive + alcohol can turn you into a rapist or not, or at least make you place your own desires above anyone else's.

Other people think that alcohol makes you do things that it would never ever enter your head to do, even in the realm of fantasizing.

I'm more inclined, personally, towards the first school of though. You are more selfish, when you are drunk and less aware of your surroundings. Moderation in drinking just makes you relaxed, over-drinking can make you let go entirely. However, people can become like that with frustration or anger as well, alcohol is not the only key. Banning alcohol entirely punishes all for the actions of a few. A very large percentage of people who get drunk don't do anything more terrible than wonder why they woke up hugging a traffic cone, they are not a threat or a danger. I will admit that some people are a problem when they are inebriated, but does that mean that all drinkers have to be punished for those actions?

I made my own choice to be pretty much tea-total, not because of my behaviour when I am drunk but simply because I dislike the feeling of being drunk, the Police's job is to serve and to protect, not to judge or to go seeking reasons to find fault. If the person needs protecting, or if someone needs protecting from that person, then the Police should intervene but arresting someone for being drunk and claiming it is for their own good, whilst slapping on a fine,  is neither serving them, nor protecting them.

[Goober5000]

Goober,
There are a couple of books I would like to point you toward. Copies aren't that hard to find and e-copies can be found if needed.
An Understandable History of the Bible by Samuel C. Gipp
Final Authority by William P. Grady

I dunno, Steel, I could probably point you toward a few books that take the opposite position.  I guess all I can do is plead Romans 14:1-4 and say that God has done incredible things for me despite the fact that I primarily read and study from the NIV.

I made my own choice to be pretty much tea-total

[Ford Prefect]

I advocate more discriminating taste in alcohol so most people won't be able to afford to get drunk, since they won't be able to swallow the bottled urine that passes for beer in America.

Seriously though, I hate being drunk, but there's nothing like a couple of drinks with dinner just to make you feel at ease with the world, especially in the summer.

[Nix]

There's absolutely nothing wrong as long as you know what you're doing, and know when to just plain stop.  If I'm doing anything like this, it's usually one-two drinks of something hard, no beer, no chasers, just give it to me quick so I don't have to keep chugging rocky mountain pisswater.

But if we're banning alcohol, can we ban Jager first?  I had one shot of Jager (Liquid Licorice) just the other day for the first time, just to see what it's like.  Apparently, Utah boys chug that **** by the gallon, that and everclear.  One shot of that and I just about died.  The taste stuck with me for about eight hours, and ruined the Absolut I was about to enjoy. 

[Prophet]

This is a funny topic

But now tjhat I have a moment of seriousness... I'll say something to the bible quoters. Why are you waasrting your time here? You don't even know if these people deserve your flood of "reason". Instead, go you at firday night and find someone who looks like he might be drinking alcohol. And the preach to him. Me and my friends have had plenty of fun listening to people who emerge from a "Jesus saves" bus. Naturally you have to be sufficently intoxicated for it to be fun (too drunk and it starts to sound rational).

Then I'll say something to the drunkards. WHO CARES! Let them preach. Let them drag you to the station. Have fun. Live fast, die young, and all that ****. Just don't kill anyone in the progress. If you do kill someone, then an alcohol ban for life, and a tattoo on your forhead.

As for us social drinkers. We just have a cold beer after sauna, relax and let others fight it out.

[Descenterace]

I am a Independent Baptist; I stand on the KJV, and have no qualms about it. I will take a stand when I can.
Let me say one last thing.

brain cells are the only cells that do not reproduce ...
according to studies by Dr. Melvin H. Kinsley, brain damage occurs progressively from THE VERY FIRST DRINK

The Bible has been proven true numerous times. This is no exception.
Thanks for your time.

http://www.docguide.com/dg.nsf/DGNews/670CECC966263FE9852566AB00508BB2
http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/14738?fulltext=true&print=yes
http://cwx.prenhall.com/bookbind/pubbooks/morris4/medialib/readings/nerves.html
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/22/1728_55460

It's amazing how common that misconception is to be honest

PWNED

[Sandwich]

The KJV Bible clearly states that alcohol is a sin and has dire consequences.

I am a Independent Baptist; I stand on the KJV, and have no qualms about it. I will take a stand when I can.

Ok, since you're new around here, I'll introduce myself so you know where I'm coming from. Hi, my name is Michael, and I do indeed live in Jerusalem, Israel. I am a Messianic Jew (which is a fancy-schmancy way of saying that I believe in Jesus just like you do, just I happen to also be Jewish, just like He was). Also, most importantly for this discussion, I am fluent in both English and Hebrew. Ok, so...

The KJV, in my eyes, cannot be relied upon as an accurate translation in any way, shape, or form. Yes, God will still use it for His purposes, but that doesn't vouch for its validity. Just like God made use of evil (the Holocaust) to bring about good (His keeping His promises and returning the Jewish people home, to Israel). Note I'm not saying the KJV is evil... I'm just saying that something does not have to be perfect for God to make use of it.

Why do I say this? Simple: The King James version (which, I hate to break it to you, is not what Jesus read... ) translates Exodus 20:13 thus: "Thou shalt not kill." This is at best an innocent mistranslation, and at worst an alteration of God's direct commandment. The Hebrew reads "לא תרצח" (Lo tir'tzach), which is "You shall not murder." Check out the Strong's: http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1143283060-5234.html#13

Think about that. "Don't kill" vs. "Don't murder". There's a whopping big difference. Had God commanded the children of Israel not to kill, then He would have made a hypocrite of Himself 40 years later by sending them throughout the land of Cannan, waging war on all those ____ites. But He commanded them not to murder, a "little" detail the KJV somehow has glossed over.

I second Goober's recommendation, that you diversify your knowledge of God's Word by reading more than just the KJV alone. In particular, the NASB is renowned for its accuracy.

If you're gonna nitpick about something (consumption of alcohol according to the Bible), then make sure that your basis for said nitpicking is as accurate as it can be. Claiming the KJV to be the be-all and end-all of your faith is, to be blunt, walking with eyes wide shut. God warns that we should be awake, be aware, on the lookout, be watchmen, that we may not be decieved. Open your eyes and make sure that the truth your walk is based upon is indeed the Truth, and not merely man's version of it.

Drinking water in Jerusalem would be vastly more devastating to the body than drinking a fermented drink.

Wha...??

[Roanoke]

nothing wrong with beer

[aldo_14]

brain cells are the only cells that do not reproduce ...
according to studies by Dr. Melvin H. Kinsley, brain damage occurs progressively from THE VERY FIRST DRINK

Ah, a citation of a study with no supporting link, no context, and by an author whose name doesn't appear in any google searches except in copies of that webpage.

BUT!  There is a neurologist called Dr. Craig H. Kinsley.  So let's try and find what he said on the brain & alcohol.... http://www.richmond.edu/~ckinsley/papers.pdf shows 2 papers from 1981, neither of which I can find the text of.  So we have a text that may or may not be from a 24 year old study, placed without context (and I'd wager twisted out of context, as it's not even a paraphrase), with no link to the study it purports to come from, and with at best the wrong author name (and at worst is completely made up, including the author).

And you'd cite this as evidence?!

The Bible has been proven true numerous times. This is no exception.
Thanks for your time.

Pi?  'Firmament'? 

Also, isn't there stuff in Deuteronomy about plundering captured cities and killing all the women and children?  Let's not even try and get into picking the rights and wrongs of using a translated & interpreted text to decide what's right for society..... at best it's unfair to everyone else.  Hell, just look at the preceeding pages over which is the correct translation, if any.