Finally got through page 6. Took me all day. Dam. Starting page 7 (im skipping page 5, wel the 2nd half of it, for now).
Im trying to keep up.
You're going to start finding spam soon. There's a good three pages that you'll be able to just skip.
Page 6. Shade: He took every species that was avalible that day and age. Maby not stuff like plankton or fish tho. The simpler versions. Like before dogs interbreeded to make the vast majority of types of dogs there are today. Well, Noah had many many years to work on the Arc with himself, his wife, and his sons\daughters. I think he worked on it for 30+ years maby, but that is a out of the blue guess, as I am not sure. Im thinking maby 100~ years, but im not sure so I wont say that. As for finding every species; he had plenty of time, and its very likely God caused the animals to come to him, or the like, so he could complete his task of captureing every species.
The point was not that Noah was or was not some great engineer, but rather that there is no physical way he could have constructed a ship as large as it was supposed to be (much less as large as it would need to be) with the materials or techniques that he had available. It's not clear that we could construct such a ship today. Nevermind that a worldwide flood, as has been pointed out
countless times, could not have happened when you say it did because we have historical records from other parts of the world (Egypt) that make absolutely no mention of anything of the sort.
The next question, if you're going to say that God made all of the animals come to Noah, how do you explain Australia? How did the Kangaroos and Koalas get to Canaan (oh hell, let's be more historically clear. Mesopotamia), exactly? And I won't even go in to how you're completely forgetting about plant life, which is a hugely diverse kingdom in and of itself.
The ‘clean’ animals were taken 7 male and 7 female of each species. The ‘unclean’ were by 3’s. IIRC. Someone mentioned that the bible contradicted itself there. I don’t know what they are talking about, as it is clear of the numbers of each.
Something about "by twos", IIRC. Not sure what translation that would have come out of though.
Wild F.: Well, adam and eve disobeyed god, they allowed sin to enter the world. Sin, death, sickness, and disease. The deadly viruses and stuff like cancer is a reslut. The spiritual realm often reflects the earthly one, so to speak. Don’t take this out of context.
I'm not sure how we should take that in context, to be frank. How it's at all relevant to anything besides your beliefs is beyond me, quite frankly, and it really sounds more like a rationalization than an answer to the question.
Nuclear1: The Canopy theory explains this. The canopy served as a shiled, and let only a few of the UV and Gamma rays of the sun, to hit the earth. Light was able to come to the earth, but the bad rays were stopped. This caused people to live near 1000 years. Plants were hudge. Trees were giant also.
Magic shield! There is no composition of atmospheric that would effectively explain this, period. Such a canopy would block out too much visible and infrared light for plant life to survive. And if you're suggesting that water was this "magic substance" then WHERE DID IT ALL GO?!? See later for why your previous explanation doesn't fly. We both know that the canopy theory is just one way of trying to make the flood plausable.
Oh, and disease and lifespan are not only affected by cosmic radiation. Local toxins, disease, and most importantly simple physical breakdown of the body are the limiting factor on human lifespan.
(Im not sure about this next segment. But il say it anyways.) On that note, that’s what dinasours were. Large versions of some of the animals. The reptiles anyways.
(EDIT) What the hell is wrong with this quote. It's clearly supposed to be orange, and it is properly terminated, yet it refuses to be orange.
No, dinosaurs were not reptiles. They were not the forerunners to modern reptiles. Their closest living relatives are actually (shock!) birds, or at least that's what current evidence points to.
Man was made by God to live forever and never die. But sin came and our lifes keep getting shorter. Sin affects our gentics over the generations and causes us to live less. It has greater and greater toll on our lifes.
I'll give you that at least this is at least internally consistant. What it lacks though is any form of evidence, and flies totally in the face of the conclusions that every analysis of aging has ever shown. In reality, 8,000 years ago (roughly when you claim the world was created), analysis of remains tells us that the human lifespan was, on the high side, less than 35. Today it is 65 or so. Other than the bible, there is nothing to suggest that people once lived longer than they do today. As far as I know, not even any crackpot theories.
Aldo: No way it could simply dissapear afterwords? Well, I learned this in Kindergarden, but, the world is, what, over 75% water and about 25% actual land? Um.. I wonder how that relates. Hmm. Beats me.
You do know the definiition of "volume", correct? Water is very incompressable in liquid form, as has already been pointed out. Repeatedly. What this means is that regardless of temperature or pressure, water in liquid form will occupy roughly one cubic meter per 1000kg of liquid. And mass is a direct function of the number of molecules of a substance present, so for water volume is also most direcly related to the number of molecules present. So you're saying there was enough water to cover the tallest mountains in the world, well that means that you've got to account for the volume of watter 8890 meters high all across the face of the world, including over the oceans. The volume for this water comes to (does some simple math) about 2.8*10^41 cubic meters. Taking only the water needed to raise the oceans themselves by that much still leaves us with a whopping 2.1*10^41 cubic meters of water,
not counting that which would actually have flooded the land. If this layer of water was in the atmosphere, then you'd be looking at a global sheet of water hanging in the air with a thickness of over 4 miles. And that's also far too much water to just dissapear. Does the problem with this not begin to become apparent?
Kara: I must prove a designer is needed before I can claim that? What? Must the pot prove it needs a clay(pot)maker before it can say it was made\designed? Your argument is fallacious.
How does a simple cell one day decide, ‘im going to get more complex’? Take this for example. The beginning cells, when a baby is created, have all the info for ‘what every other cell I make will do’. Each cell has its own job, function, wether to make an ear or eye etc. They do what their programmed to do. The origional cell(s) have all the ‘blueprints’, and it does not simply change them.
The transition from single-celled organisms to multi-celled ones is one of the less documented transitions, in part because it happened so long ago and in part because the transition would have occured in such small organisms. However, it is a valid point. There are several theories as to just how that happened (most relying on multiple single-celled organisms forming a colony, which then developed into a more complex organism over time). See
the wiki article for a high-level overview. I'm not a biologist, so I can't really offer any more explanation than is there without going to great lengths to look it up.
Please explain the correct meaning of ‘Natural Selection’, then.
Wasent Radiocarbon dateing said to have been a flawd way of dateing things?
Nope, it's considered to be one of the most accurate actually as long as you take the proper variables into consideration. Radioactive decay rates are some of the most constant things in nature; you can set your watch by it - literally (that's how the atomic clock works). The ID/ creationist camp would like you to believe that it's not accurate, but that's only with the most naive of methods.
FFS. What I said about ID was not wrong. Prove your soruces. Mine said, well, what I said. There is an intellegent force, not god. They fight christianity and evolution at the same time. Some may be ‘predominately’ christian, but they sure as heck don’t claim they are. They say some being is doing it. Not god. They mean god but they don’t say its ‘god’.
ID credits God with creation, period. You won't find any official source that comes out and says that, as the entire point of it is to get creationism into the classroom and two centuries of constitutional law would be violated if the used God as the creator. After all, what is God in your explanation but that designer?
Firecrack: My list does support ID. It does not support evolution. How are they wrong or foolish?
Im not talking about abosilute ages because they go back 100,000 years up to 1 million or billion years. All of them are way past the approx. 10,000 years creationists believe the earth exitsted. So it would be pointless.
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. There are "old-earth" creationists who do not take the
6000 year date that a literal interpretation of the bible yields as being the age of the earth, instead settling on something much older. At least they don't have to try to argue that the Grand Canyon was carved in 40 days.
Id like to hear more about this ‘different groupings of fossils being in different places’ statement. Im interesed.
What this is essentially refering to is fossils of animals being in the same geographic location as their modern-day descendents. This is usually at a continental scale, more or less. The point is, if the tossed salad approach to the layerinig of fossils, being mixed around by the flood, were true (already debunked in more detail than was really necessary) then the geographical distribution wouldn't follow.
Shade: God created the universe basicaly how it is. He created earth in its middle stages already. He made it as if it was there for that long- made the light already be reaching earth. This is a belief based on reasoning, not exactly facts.
How do Evolutionitsts believe the universe began?
First, there are not "evolutionists" in the sense that there are creationists. We are not followers of any doctrine of thought other than that of the scientific method. To characterize everyone who knows evolution happened/happens as "evolutionists" is including people of faith, most notably the heads of the Roman Catholic and Anglican churches, as being anti-God. It makes a nice us-vs-them mentality if you want but it's patently false to make that generalization. So, with that said: the most commonly accepted theory in the scientific community is that the universe started with the big bang, approximately 13 billion years ago (give or take a billion or two). The matter and energy released in that explosion spread out, cooled, and formed into galaxies and stars. Ultimately some of the denser matter coalesced into planets. That gets us, in the case of earth, up to about 4 billion years ago.
Then there are the more faith-minded supporters of evolution. They may believe anything from the big bang to creation of the earth at that 4 billion year mark by a higher power. There are too many faiths - and too many people within those faiths - to qualify that one any further.
However, evolutionary theory makes no assumptions about how life began. It starts with life itself. Life from life, one organism from another. Not life from nothingness, that is a different theory. Please. Stop. Confusing. Them.
Stratcomm: What changes are being made in our own race?
What if the single male and single female had a whole lot of kids?
*You've mentioned one yourself (or tried to explain it): skin coloration. How would skin pigmentation properties - at the genetic level - adapt to different climates? Because we wanted them to? No. We
evolved. You've almost said so yourself, all you left out was that key e word.
A good deal of them died at once, because of the flood.
There were animals that died before the flood. Mostlikely a good deal of time before the flood. That explains why their older.
Another
I thought you said the earth was only 10,000 years old. When was the flood? And how could animals have died "a good deal of time before the flood" and still leave time for civilizations like Egypt to grow almost instantly out of creation? Logical contradiction.
Distributed evenly? Do tornados distribute debree evenly? Its nonsence.
The correct phrase would have been "randomly", and with a large enough sample size random distribution = even distribution. And yes, tornados do distribute their wreckage randomly within the distance those debris can travel when exiting the funnel.
Aldo: I liked your analogy of evolution, as keeping the correct letters for the next generation. Kudos.
Please talk about the ‘pole reversals’ some more. Id like you to explain it in more detail.
Magnetic pole reversal. See
Geomagnetic Reversal (Wikipedia). The reversal of Earth's magnetic field that occurs once every 250,000-2,000,000 years. It is hypothesized that the current weakening of the magnetic field is a prelude to a coming flip, though this is merely a theory.
“Also it ignores the theory of DNA and protein evolution.” Explain more please.
I'll need more context before I go digging back 10 pages to find what you're refering to. I'd imagine it's refering to the possibility that complex molecules can form out of simpler ones with the proper stimuli in a life-free environment. Protien synthesis leading to abiogenesis. At any rate, it's outside of the context of this thread, as we are debating evolution.
“Creationists believe that God created all animals and living things at Creation. Though they may have changed since God created the universe, they didn’t change by natural selection or mutation, but changed within fixed limits. Not nearly as extreme as the Evolutionists believe. So the animals we see today are mainly how God created them at Creation. -Charismatic
"Contradicted by fossil evidence. Also fails to explain why God would create something that needed to be changed - isnn't His creation supposed to be perfecT?-Aldo” As I said before, sin entered the earth, stuff changed and happened how it wasent susposed to. Ect ect ect..
Proper quotes. You've been good, but I'm still going to harp on this.
So evolution can happen now because it's needed to explain things that have happened in the last, oh, 6000 years that we can documentably show? Saying that sin is responsible is like saying that things changed because the flying spaghetti monster dripped a bit of omnipotent tomato sauce on them. It's taking the explainable out of the real of this world for no other reason than that it contradicts your beliefs.
“Here's another thing - how likely is it that an omnipotent and omniscent being just pops into existence, creates the earth, places stuff in the Earth contradicting the story he, she or it tells people, waits several thousand years before making itself known (and allowing the likes of polytheistic Greek, etc religions to toddle on), and makes such a botch job that they need to keep coming back and wiping out or modifying animals?” Once again id like to point out, the first link I gave you guys (not the one in the report). We are comeing at this topic with differences in opinion and biases. You don’t know how certing things make sence, and I do. But the way your portraying these certain thigns I don’t agree with. He was. He didn’t become into existance, as our logic suggests. He did not have parents ect. He just ‘was’. He said “tell them that I AM sent you” IIRC, in one case. We just cant understand this just yet. We are only human and cant comprehend this. He has no contradictions. He made himself known. Adam and Eve knew him. Noah knew him, the others refused to believe in him. Allowing other religons? -Free will. He only wiped us out once. He didn’t need to modify animals.
“Perhaps one of the most important issues - how does the flood explain fossil mineralization? Because, y'see, fossils aren't bones - they're replaced by minerals. We have archeological evidence from biblical and pre-biblical times that shows there's not enough time for this to happen.” Wheres your evidence.
Mummified bodies are not fossilized. Bones found at burial sites throughout the world dating from 20,000 years ago to the present are not fossilized. Here's a link that explains how rocks are dated, which is somewhat relevant:
http://www.museum.vic.gov.au/prehistoric/what/fossilage.html. Unfortunately a relatively quick search yielded nothing about the speed of fossilization outside of refering to it as "a slow process" (and we're talking about rocks here, so the time scale is at least in part geologic). Admittedly the most recent actually fossilized remains found are about 10,000 years old, but others are far, far older. A bit of a moot point though because they can be radiologically dated with enough precision to put most fossils much older than that.
Kara: About ME, maby they were not talking about the timline of the earth. Maby they were.
Turny: “does anyone wanna explain, without using evolution, how there are many different races, all of which a directly descended from a single white (according to many religious paintings) couple?”
Paintings are paintings to make the picutre more socially and culturely pleasing. Their skincolor is unknown and extremely irrevelant. When they had enough decendents, they split up (After the tower of babel, and the newly developed different languages) and went different ways. They form then, in their respective area, over the thousands of years, their physical appearance changed to the respects of their surrondings ect. Skin color, and probably bone structures changed alittle, as iv stated before.
It does not make you God. In the bible it says something to the effect of, “God created us. Everything we create was in effect, created by him; as we are his creation.”
See *. We've said this time and time again, changes in response to surroundings are evolution. Period. Unless you can somehow show that they were divinly caused, then they evolved.
