[NGTM-1R]

They had small numbers of the newer fightercraft left; some Aeoli(spelling?) too.

[Goober5000]

Because, quite simply, they have three systems. The GTVA has 20-odd systems, with all that goes with that: greater industrial capacity, greater population, greater resources of all kinds, as well as a significantly larger fleet composed of ships of a more recent vintage. The proof the NTF can't win is in the disappearance of newer ships from their ranks. They could neither repair nor replace them; they fell back upon older craft, of which they have greater stockpiles and so can keep going longer, but they lack the ability to sustain them indefinitely.

You're forgetting the jump nodes.  As long as you can only enter or exit a system through a single point, you can play Horatio at the Bridge and fight off the GTVA all day.

[aldo_14]

Because, quite simply, they have three systems. The GTVA has 20-odd systems, with all that goes with that: greater industrial capacity, greater population, greater resources of all kinds, as well as a significantly larger fleet composed of ships of a more recent vintage. The proof the NTF can't win is in the disappearance of newer ships from their ranks. They could neither repair nor replace them; they fell back upon older craft, of which they have greater stockpiles and so can keep going longer, but they lack the ability to sustain them indefinitely.

You're forgetting the jump nodes.  As long as you can only enter or exit a system through a single point, you can play Horatio at the Bridge and fight off the GTVA all day.

Even WW1 trench warfare couldn't be sustained indefinately.

[Sarafan]

Because, quite simply, they have three systems. The GTVA has 20-odd systems, with all that goes with that: greater industrial capacity, greater population, greater resources of all kinds, as well as a significantly larger fleet composed of ships of a more recent vintage. The proof the NTF can't win is in the disappearance of newer ships from their ranks. They could neither repair nor replace them; they fell back upon older craft, of which they have greater stockpiles and so can keep going longer, but they lack the ability to sustain them indefinitely.

You're forgetting the jump nodes.  As long as you can only enter or exit a system through a single point, you can play Horatio at the Bridge and fight off the GTVA all day.

Even WW1 trench warfare couldn't be sustained indefinately.

Yes but in this case you just have to make it bloody enough so that the enemy wont want to fight anymore.

[TrashMan]

You say it's a strange number, but you can't justify that without using your own assumptions.

No, I can justify it...when looking  the bigger picture with all ship classes, the internal volume, weaponry/fighters and crew numbers don't add up.

You've just defined it for yourself there, assuming - ooh - all the crew 'counts' for fighters, weaponry, and the internal structure.  That's what I meant by 'without using your own assumptions'; the arguement you make against it is based entirely on what you think, not anything said or shown in the game.

I beg to differ - the length, thus the size and volume is known. Weapon arrays on capships are also known, as is the number of fighters they carry and miniumum required pilots (2x150)
The exact number of fighter crew is not known, but actually, even taking the whole fighter complement out of the equation, the crew numbers STILL don't add up.

[aldo_14]

You say it's a strange number, but you can't justify that without using your own assumptions.

No, I can justify it...when looking  the bigger picture with all ship classes, the internal volume, weaponry/fighters and crew numbers don't add up.

You've just defined it for yourself there, assuming - ooh - all the crew 'counts' for fighters, weaponry, and the internal structure.  That's what I meant by 'without using your own assumptions'; the arguement you make against it is based entirely on what you think, not anything said or shown in the game.

I beg to differ - the length, thus the size and volume is known. Weapon arrays on capships are also known, as is the number of fighters they carry and miniumum required pilots (2x150)
The exact number of fighter crew is not known, but actually, even taking the whole fighter complement out of the equation, the crew numbers STILL don't add up.

Length != internal volume; internal volume is therefore... not known.  Turret crew - not known.  Engineering and other subsystem crew - not known.  Flight support crew - not known.  Pilot to fighter/bomber ratios - not known (who says they don't have rotation fighters?).

[AlphaOne]

WEll regardless of how many crewmen they can fit into a ship for all I know they could fit 30.000 crewmen into a Sobek. They sure as hell can on a modern aicraft carrier if it would be fariing refugees or something like that.

But anywai did quik look over on the Wiki and found an aproximation of the hips the NTF had during the rebelion.

32-Cruisers
10-Corvettes
10-11-Destroyers

Now if these figures are just from the fleets of 3 star sistems then what in the name of whatever gods the fishhugger's pray to, is the aproximated number of warships in service during the war??

[aldo_14]

WEll regardless of how many crewmen they can fit into a ship for all I know they could fit 30.000 crewmen into a Sobek. They sure as hell can on a modern aicraft carrier if it would be fariing refugees or something like that.

But anywai did quik look over on the Wiki and found an aproximation of the hips the NTF had during the rebelion.

32-Cruisers
10-Corvettes
10-11-Destroyers

Now if these figures are just from the fleets of 3 star sistems then what in the name of whatever gods the fishhugger's pray to, is the aproximated number of warships in service during the war??

You're forgetting that some ships defected to the NTF from the GTVA.  Possibly quite a lot.  Also, IIRC the NTF pushed out from their 'core' systems; for example, in the beginning of FS2 the NTF is in combat with the GTVA in Alpha Centauri, Epsilon Pegasi and Deneb.

An interesting quote is, though;

36 hours ago, the NTF launched a full-scale offensive in Epsilon Pegasi, taking the GTVA 6th Fleet by surprise. Commanding his forces from the NTD Repulse, Rear Admiral Koth leads the rebel advance. With 75 percent of our forces in this system decimated, the regional death toll since the incursion now exceeds 80,000.

Unless we act quickly, a decisive rebel victory is imminent.

[AlphaOne]

well yeah but still you must remember that they also had to deal with the GTVA forces still loyal to the GTVA also i do not believe that that many rebels managed to join with bosch because the GTVA was always around. after the initial shock passed on.

But still in general the main forcet that the NTF had were the forces from the Polaris sirius and regulus sistems if i'm not mistaken. Well most of them with the defecting warships completing the fleets the NTF could bring to the battle field. Lets not foget that at least some of the warships that defected to the NTF were mainly deimos corvettes and cruisers and posibli one destroyer or so from the 6=th fleet!

Also is it safe to asume that the standard GTVA fleet has about 2 destroyers per sistem with the acompaniing corvettes and cruisers.

[TrashMan]

I beg to differ - the length, thus the size and volume is known. Weapon arrays on capships are also known, as is the number of fighters they carry and miniumum required pilots (2x150)
The exact number of fighter crew is not known, but actually, even taking the whole fighter complement out of the equation, the crew numbers STILL don't add up.

Length != internal volume; internal volume is therefore... not known.  Turret crew - not known.  Engineering and other subsystem crew - not known.  Flight support crew - not known.  Pilot to fighter/bomber ratios - not known (who says they don't have rotation fighters?).

If you know the lenght you can calculate the internal volume since you know the shape of the ship (if you're any good at math that is).
Turret crew - not known, but there is no reason for laser turret to require more crew on a Orion than it would on a Deimos. thus the crew-per-tueerrt-type numbr would be the same for all classes

As I said - fighters and their crew don't even come into the equation. Even without them the ratios don't add up. Include them and it's actually even worse.

[aldo_14]

The internal volume only works if you assume it is an entirely hollow object.  Which it blatantly bloody well isn't.  Even then, it's an irregularly shaped object, and you have to work out the level of armour plating to calculate the inner bounds.

Turret crew; there are all manner of possible reasons from differing levels of automation to complexity & maintenance.  Are we forgetting the Orion has 16 turrets, and the Deimos 26 (Sobek 22)?  i'm not quite sure why an Orion needs more turret crew than an Orion for this to work (unless you're strictly using made up crew-to-subsystem ratios), but if you want a reason - Orion turrets are older and less reliable / less automated.  For example.

So, all unknowns.

[Sarafan]

WEll regardless of how many crewmen they can fit into a ship for all I know they could fit 30.000 crewmen into a Sobek. They sure as hell can on a modern aicraft carrier if it would be fariing refugees or something like that.

But anywai did quik look over on the Wiki and found an aproximation of the hips the NTF had during the rebelion.

32-Cruisers
10-Corvettes
10-11-Destroyers

Now if these figures are just from the fleets of 3 star sistems then what in the name of whatever gods the fishhugger's pray to, is the aproximated number of warships in service during the war??

This is just the number of ships that we know during the course of the game, since the rebellion had already been going for 18 months it safe to assume that the actual number of ships the NTF had were higher then this but even with this numbers they could have held their 3 main sistems for a veeery long time, also it's interesting to note the unusual high number of destroyers.

[NGTM-1R]

Destroyers are more likely to survive then other ships however, with their integral fighter cover and greater durablity. Also smaller craft are likely to end up sacrificing themselves to protect their destroyer, slightly inflating their casualities. The high number of destroyers probably represents survivors from previous "waves" of mobilization. These may be a bit beat-up or have damaged aerospace groups.

[Mobius]

WEll regardless of how many crewmen they can fit into a ship for all I know they could fit 30.000 crewmen into a Sobek. They sure as hell can on a modern aicraft carrier if it would be fariing refugees or something like that.

But anywai did quik look over on the Wiki and found an aproximation of the hips the NTF had during the rebelion.

32-Cruisers
10-Corvettes
10-11-Destroyers

Now if these figures are just from the fleets of 3 star sistems then what in the name of whatever gods the fishhugger's pray to, is the aproximated number of warships in service during the war??

This is just the number of ships that we know during the course of the game, since the rebellion had already been going for 18 months it safe to assume that the actual number of ships the NTF had were higher then this but even with this numbers they could have held their 3 main sistems for a veeery long time, also it's interesting to note the unusual high number of destroyers.

I can't believe that the number of NTF corvettes is equal to the destroyers' one.It's impossible!
And what are these questions about subsys-ratio-crew etc.?
Maybe it's a story plot "bug" FS has.I can't believe that in 2370 turrets are still controlled by crew.Neither some modern ones are!

[Sarafan]

That's because corvettes are newer ships and they would be assigned first to the most important sistems (Beta Aquilae and Delta Serpentis) so there wouldnt be a high number in the possesion of the NTF.

[Mobius]

That's because corvettes are newer ships and they would be assigned first to the most important sistems (Beta Aquilae and Delta Serpentis) so there wouldnt be a high number in the possesion of the NTF.

That's not necessary true.In the Freedom shipyards in Polaris Bosch made the Iceni,a "super-corvette".Why they shouldn't create Deimos too?
I don't know if someone talked about this before,but NTF ships with <bad> names,like the NTC Refute and the NTD Repulse may be NTF constructed ships(or ships under construction then captured by the NTF,so the rebels have changed their names).The rebels controlled 3 systems,maybe they have constructed one or two Orions,up to three Deimos and even more Aeolus(the NTF has too many Aeolus cruisers for its dimensions,we know that there are 24 of them,but after seeing the Mylae,the Hellespont,the Saharan,the Liberty,the Epigoni,and considering that other cruisers with non-specificated class can be Aeolus...well..)or Leviathans(and,ok,Fenris too).

[Sarafan]

Yeah, I agree. And I think that the shipyards under their control focused more on capital ship production than on small craft but because its a new ship there would be many around. Why does everybody says the NTF is lacking in technology? The more advanced fighters/bombers of the GTVA (ex:Perseus) were introduced only in the course of the game so for the most part of the conflict both sides had an equal field.

[AlphaOne]

Actualy thats not true the rebels never had large numbers of Hercules MK II neither did they have large numbers of Mirmadons for that matter. Most of the time they just came at you with Herc's MK I and Loki's . But i must admit that they were or most of the time on equal footing in terms of tech with the GTVA. In fact if considered from a destroyers POW they were superior because they had a large number of the much older yet more powerull Orion class destroyers which for all they AAAF weakness and smaller fighterbay were far superior to the Hecate for a beam weaopons POW.


This has led me to believe that more then 60% of the actual casualtis suffered by the GTVA in terms of capships came from beam fire rather then bommber or heavy fighter attacks.
If that is the case then that would imply a level of sophistication in the tactics far superior to any tactic used by the GTVA command.

[aldo_14]

Maybe it's a story plot "bug" FS has.I can't believe that in 2370 turrets are still controlled by crew.Neither some modern ones are!

There are still maintenance, target assignment, etc duties associated even if the turret tracks the actual targets all by itself.  The very fact of 10,000 crew on a destroyer makes it pretty apparent that manual labour / control is needed somewhere on the ship.

[Mars]

Actually that's not true, the rebels never had large numbers of Hercules MK II['s], nor did they have large numbers of Myrmidons for that matter. Most of the time they just came at you with Herc's MK I['s] and Loki's . But I must admit that they were or most of the time on equal footing [most of the time] in terms of tech with the GTVA [in terms of tech].

I think most people can agree with that.

In fact if considered from a destroyer POV they were superior because they had a large number of the much older, yet more powerful, Orion class destroyers: which for all theyir AAAF weakness and smaller fighterbay were far superior to the Hecate for a beam weapons POV .

How do we know that the NTF had more Orions than the GTVA had?

This has led me to believe that more then 60% of the actual casualties suffered by the GTVA in terms of capships came from beam fire rather then bomber or heavy fighter attacks.

And how did everything you've said before now backed this up? 

If that is the case then that would imply a level of sophistication in the tactics far superior to any tactic used by the GTVA command.

Assuming everything you said was true, how would it display better tactics and not better selection