[Ghostavo]

And of course that fails to realise that it's the GT ->V<- A and not GTA. Vacuum cleaner FTW!!!

EDIT:
In response to the reply below, that's my point!

[Mars]

Did anyone say GTA?

[TrashMan]

Yada, yada...

As I said - Hecate has approximately 12 times the volume of a Deimos and the same number of turrets.
The 10:6  crew ratio is hard to belive given the HUGE volume difference even if the Hecate was a pure warship type (no fighters). It's even more redicolus with the fighters counted in.

This cannot be denied! (not even by you)

[Sarafan]

I think its possible that the NTF had more Orions but thats because the GTVA had more Hecates.

[NGTM-1R]

Yeah, I agree. And I think that the shipyards under their control focused more on capital ship production than on small craft but because its a new ship there would be many around. Why does everybody says the NTF is lacking in technology? The more advanced fighters/bombers of the GTVA (ex:Perseus) were introduced only in the course of the game so for the most part of the conflict both sides had an equal field.

They lacked Hecates (for better or worse), they had a very small number of Herc IIs (predeployed in the game, the 107th had not just finished transitioning to them, they were equipped before you got there) and had a small number of Myrmidons too. The Boanerges predates your first flight of it. The NTF did not have the Perseus (although it is worthwhile to realize that the Perseus is not necessarily brand new and while considered a "new" fighter has probably been in squadron service for at least a month before you got there), Artemis (maybe?), and definitely not the Eryines.

[Sarafan]

The Perseus is really new, it doesnt have much service time since it was introduced on the end of the conflict. The Eryines was only in service with the SOC but it seemed to be on opeval with them, it was only much later that it was deployed for the fleet. The bombers are also new but its said in the techroom that all Artemis are serving with the 2nd and 3rd battle groups and the Boanerges have been assigned to elite bomber squadrons in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th Terran battle groups so that seems to show that there are only limited number of these craft. It would appear that most of the fighters and bombers that the GTVA were using before the game were the Herc IIs, Myrmidons, Zeus and to some good extent older crafts. They lacked Hecates because there doesnt seem to be many of them around, my guess is that the ship is a even newer desgin then the Deimos and because it takes more time to build a destroyer there shouldnt be too many of them (we only see 2 on the main campaign).
About the Vasudans tech level, it would seem that all of their ships (except the Ptah) have already been in service for a good time.

[aldo_14]

Yada, yada...

As I said - Hecate has approximately 12 times the volume of a Deimos and the same number of turrets.
The 10:6  crew ratio is hard to belive given the HUGE volume difference even if the Hecate was a pure warship type (no fighters). It's even more redicolus with the fighters counted in.

This cannot be denied! (not even by you)

Oh, for goodness sake.  Did you read what I said?  Obviously not.

You cannot calculate the internal volume due to a) the irregular shape of vessels, b) the unknowns of the thickness of the hull and c) the unknowns of the internal structure and which mechanical, cargo or components are present.  For example, a destroyer might be intended for a vastly longer tour of duty than a corvette, and hence have a vastly larger cargo store for supplies.

What you've done, is a) calculate the volume of the highly irregular destroyer class (versus the much more regular corvette shape) and then b) assume the destroyer represents some sort of maximum crew cap.

This cannot be denied etc etc blah exclamation mark capitals soforth.

[TrashMan]

You err sir.. It is a matter of simple deduction - if a Collie has 12 times the volume ofa lucifer than a Heacte has 12 times (ROUGHLY) the TOTAL volume of a Deimos. Just how big a percentage of that is usefull volume is another matter, but you don't design warship to have a lot us useless volume, now do you?

Let's assume there is a vessel the size of a Orion that is a pure heavy hitter and carrier no fighters whatsoever. what would you estimate it's crew complement?
What would you estimate a cruiser complement is? (destruction of the Orff mentioned 120 methinks or several dozen..can't remember which)

Just how much does it take you to see the lack of logic between size of ships and crew complement?

[aldo_14]

Why estimate when we have official values?

[TrashMan]

becoause you don't have an estimate of a destroyer-sized NOT-carrier-warship maby?

[aldo_14]

becoause you don't have an estimate of a destroyer-sized NOT-carrier-warship maby?

what in the name of holy **** does that have to do with anything?

[NGTM-1R]

You err sir.. It is a matter of simple deduction - if a Collie has 12 times the volume ofa lucifer than a Heacte has 12 times (ROUGHLY) the TOTAL volume of a Deimos. Just how big a percentage of that is usefull volume is another matter, but you don't design warship to have a lot us useless volume, now do you?

Okay, basic design understanding time! Useless=Armor Fuel Supplies Weapons Powergeneration Engines Everythingelsenotcrewspaces. No.  Just no.

Please note the Colossus' speed relative to a destroyer, then its size and superior durablity. Please consider that in must have vastly larger amounts of interior space spent on engines then a destroyer. Please take into consideration its much greater density of beam cannon to surface area.

Also please note that the Hecate is not 12 times the volume of the Deimos. That's straight bullcrap. Six, perhaps eight at most; the irregular shape (which you keep dismissing) means it is nowhere near as much as you say. Six-eight times the space is moving at a speed slightly less then half. Three times the engines minimum. Probably more, considering while it may be six-eight times the space it is probably twelve times the mass.

Let's assume there is a vessel the size of a Orion that is a pure heavy hitter and carrier no fighters whatsoever. what would you estimate it's crew complement?

Leave the damn battleships out of it, they're irrevelant to the discussion.

[TrashMan]

becoause you don't have an estimate of a destroyer-sized NOT-carrier-warship maby?

what in the name of holy **** does that have to do with anything?

It does.. A ship like that would have to have more than a sobek but less than a hecate thus demonstrating the totaly redicolous crew numbers.

Could you really immagine a Orion-sized Deimos type ship with only 8000 crew compared to Dimos?

Cruiser to Corvette to That-kind-of--ship to Destroyer.

think man..the crew numbers just don't make sense.

[TrashMan]

Please note the Colossus' speed relative to a destroyer, then its size and superior durablity. Please consider that in must have vastly larger amounts of interior space spent on engines then a destroyer. Please take into consideration its much greater density of beam cannon to surface area.

Also please note that the Hecate is not 12 times the volume of the Deimos. That's straight bullcrap. Six, perhaps eight at most; the irregular shape (which you keep dismissing) means it is nowhere near as much as you say. Six-eight times the space is moving at a speed slightly less then half. Three times the engines minimum. Probably more, considering while it may be six-eight times the space it is probably twelve times the mass.

All taken inot the ac****..

The Collie has bigger engines but it's allso bigger, so the space devoted to engies is proportionally the same (if not smaller - the collie has less engines actually)
If you scae something up every subsystem is allso scaled - thus the ratios remain the same. Armor is another matter, it might scale more or lees. That allso means that the crew space scales more or less the same.


And the Hecate actually has the Volume of 10 Deimoses (check it in Truespace yourself).
It's not only the length, but allso the width and height that increased.

A good example is a cube with 1cm sides and a cube with 3 cm sides.
The other ones' dimensions is x3 but it can fit 3x3x3 = 27 1cm cubes inside

[aldo_14]

Ah, so now we're making up how much space the Colossus engines require?

And still missing the sort of key thing about volume - a Hecate isn't a box.  Tsch.  I mean, come on.  Not all ships need to be hexagonal tubes with holes in the front.  What about a cube of 1cm dimensions, versus a sphere of 1cm radius?  Not the same volume!  Shockeroony!

Oh, and using an imaginary ship to explain 'the crew numbers don't make sense'.  Imaginary.  In fact, you're little pet ubership class, I believe, which you work so hard to try and justify......

[Mars]

Oh, and using an imaginary ship to explain 'the crew numbers don't make sense'.  Imaginary.  In fact, you're little pet ubership class, I believe, which you work so hard to try and justify......

You mean this one?

Thanx! The model I'm talking abot is a 5,8 km long Battleship with over 150 turrets. When finished (I'll post a pic. here) it should have abot 8000-9000 polygons. Is that too much? Too litle?

You know Trashman, if you didn't try justifying everything, and just released MODs, or one big MOD with missions and all of your various changes for the game, I think it would be really fun. No one is stopping you from releasing MODs; you should try it: I think your quite capable of changing things to conform to a lot of your suggestions yourself, and then releasing them. I think it would be quite fun, if damn near impossible, to fly against one of those "battleships" that you were thinking of

[AlphaOne]

Trashman i had an idea regarding a battleship calss and even a dreadnought class of warships but 150 turrets.....youch.......thats how shall i say this......huge. Also the ship is too byg at least that is what i have come to believe. It would be to cumbersome in the post capella era. Unless you place the stroy at least 2 decades after capella. Why not try and scalde it down a bit to about 4 km max. Put err....2 BFG 4 BG and 3 slashers on it and it should do the trick i think. No fighters to worry about.

But then you would have to have a very good AAAF defensive sistem placed on it. And at leas one carrier trailing it no matter what. You need the fighters or bommbers if you want to make good use of the ship you could use something like a pincer movement with the bommbers and fighters then jump in with the battleships and tart them to pieces in amatter of seconds while the bommbers and fighters retreat. Or you could just pitch it up against a Ravana in which case it should lose in case it doesnt have the amount of HP the Colie had.

but back to the whole Orion stuff. Well the GTVA employed most of the time either Hecates or Hatshepsut for large fleet operations while the Orions that were still in service with the GTVA were usde to pound the enemy with its powerfull beams. Lets not forget that the GTVA must of had at least half a dozen of Hecates cuz well even the NTF had at least 1. I think I saw it in the wiki the number of Hecates the GTVA had.

Well the reason behind the superior tactics was based on the actual size of both fleets (GTVA vs. NTF)
 lets not forget that the terrnas had a fleet equal if not larger to the one the NTF had and we also have our friendly nighberhood fishhugging friends the Zods. And from what I could see they were in a much better shape then the terrans were. I mean much more modern destroyers to replace the aging ones also a lot more corvettes and relatively new fighters/bommbers.


so the fleet the GTVA had at its disposal was at least double that of the NTF. Yet it took the Collie to efectively do away with the NTF. It was bute force and not tactics that on this war.

[Mars]

but back to the whole Orion stuff. Well the GTVA employed most of the time either Hecates or Hatshepsut for large fleet operations while the Orions that were still in service with the GTVA were used to pound the enemy with its powerfully beams. Lets not forget that the GTVA must of had at least half a dozen of Hecates cuz well even the NTF had at least 1. I think I saw it in the wiki the number of Hecates the GTVA had.

The Wiki only lists the ships that the player sees in the game, there may well be more than that, or not; I personally don't remember seeing more than about three Hecates in the main campaign, but I may be wrong.

Well the reason behind the superior tactics was based on the actual size of both fleets (GTVA vs. NTF)

Size is NOT tactics, tactics =/= size.

lets not forget that the Terrans had a fleet equal if not larger to the one the NTF had and we also have our friendly neighborhood fish-hugging friends the Zods. And from what I could see they were in a much better shape then the Terrans were. I mean much more modern destroyers to replace the aging ones also a lot more corvettes and relatively new fighters/bombers.

Yeah, like I said, I think we can all agree with that.

so the fleet the GTVA had at its disposal was at least double that of the NTF. Yet it took the Collie to effectively do away with the NTF. It was brute force and not tactics that on this war.

First off, tactics played a good part, for instance if Rear Admiral Koth had sent in a cruiser or corvette to deal with the GTC Rampart, the Repulse would not have been destroyed. I don't know about the relative sizes of fleets, and I wonder about whether or not the GTVA could have come up with a non-Juggernaut solution to the war.

[AlphaOne]

WEll at the level and logic that most of the GTVA high commnad gave orders ....never.

Also we must remember that whyle obsolete the NTF had a very good defensive postion. I mean the GTVA could not run the blocades without running into al least 3 BG from an Orion. Also the rebels had quite powerfull bommbers. Sure they may not be the most modern but they are efective and deadly.

But i must admit that with the right tactics the GTVA could of won the war without a jugg tipe solution. but then it wouldnt be any fun now would it.

Well the wiki does show a lot of ships that we dont see in the campaign but are mentioned in the game either in the debrief or briefing . I supose we can accept those as well cant we?

Also I dont believe that the GTVA would of sacrificed its most modern destroyers on taking on the NTF simply because it would of been a waste. Frankly I would much rather see and Orion survive then a Hecate. Why?

simply because the Orion is much much better at taking out enemy warships then the Hecate could ever be. And we all know that shivans like to get in lose and personal to make use of theyr superior beam tech.

[aldo_14]

Hecate has more bombers........never regard destroyers as singular entities, they're never used in that manner but as the centre of a diverse and mobile attacking force.