Author Topic: What do you call it when 1.3m people are displaced and 100k killed?  (Read 3678 times)

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Offline Rictor

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What do you call it when 1.3m people are displaced and 100k killed?
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1958776,00.html

In any other country, you would call it genocide and ethnic cleansing. You would call it a monstrous act beyond comprehension, a barbaric assault of all that is good and right in the world. In Iraq you would call it...well, no one's calling it anything, because hardly anyone notices. Yugoslavia was bombed and invaded for far smaller numbers than this. But I guess it's absurd to hold everyone to the same standards, right?

*I put 100k killed, though that number is more than a year out of date, and is probably much higher by now

 

Offline pecenipicek

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Re: What do you call it when 1.3m people are displaced and 100k killed?
not yugoslavia. Serbia and Montenegro. yugoslavia fell apart around '91 when Croatia, Slovenia and Bosnia and Herzegovina left it and became separate countries. Serbia was... bombed by NATO somewhere around '98 if i'm not mistaken, not sure, i was only 8 years old at the time :nervous:


yes, i'm nitpicking.

as for the article itself... frankly, couldnt care less...
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: What do you call it when 1.3m people are displaced and 100k killed?
You may call it a monstrous act beyond comprehension, but Americans call it progress!

 

Offline redmenace

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Re: What do you call it when 1.3m people are displaced and 100k killed?
Not really....It is civil war.
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Offline Ford Prefect

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Re: What do you call it when 1.3m people are displaced and 100k killed?
Has everyone forgotten the "Mission Accomplished" banner? That means the mission was accomplished, so stop being naysayers. You'll make the troops cry.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: What do you call it when 1.3m people are displaced and 100k killed?
Yugoslavia was bombed and invaded for far smaller numbers than this. But I guess it's absurd to hold everyone to the same standards, right?

Yes. Damn those bastard Kosovans for daring to presume that they had any right to self determination! It was an act of asymetric warfare for them to make it look there was any danger in allowing an army already guilty of two genocidal wars into their country.

Such obvious propaganda sickens me. It's obvious the Serbian army only wanted to hand out flowers and lollypops!
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Offline Kosh

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Re: What do you call it when 1.3m people are displaced and 100k killed?
I call it "Hurricane America"
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Offline Rictor

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Re: What do you call it when 1.3m people are displaced and 100k killed?
kara: If you think that, and you're certainly entitled to it, than I must ask why you're (presumably) not calling for US and UK leaders to be strung up, delivered in chains to the Hague and their nation's military capability destroyed? In my mind, equal acts deserve equal consequences.  Some crazy notion like equality before the law or some such thing. And I was not reffering exclusively to Kosovo, the same arguement can be used for a dozen other places. For example, the conflict in Sudan has claimed, according to Wikipedia, between 40k and 400k lives, and driven out many more. No civilized person or nation would think twice about calling it a genocide, and Somalia has become in international pariah. The consequences of that conflict are, if we take the most reliable figures for Iraq, very similar to what's going on in Iraq. So why the double standards?

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: What do you call it when 1.3m people are displaced and 100k killed?
Genocide implies (ethnic cleansing is a redundant term), well, an attempt to remove a particular demographic. Violence has not been conciously leveled at a particular demographic by the US; and while it has by the locals, what're you gonna do? Send in the US Army as peacekeepers?
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Offline karajorma

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Re: What do you call it when 1.3m people are displaced and 100k killed?
kara: If you think that, and you're certainly entitled to it, than I must ask why you're (presumably) not calling for US and UK leaders to be strung up

Who says I'm not? I would have thought that the vitriolic language I tend to use when describing those people should have made the depth of contempt I have for those peoples actions in Iraq.

Let me ask you this then Rictor. What do you think the UN should have done about the conflicts in Bosnia and Kosovo?
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Offline Rictor

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Re: What do you call it when 1.3m people are displaced and 100k killed?
Genocide implies (ethnic cleansing is a redundant term), well, an attempt to remove a particular demographic. Violence has not been conciously leveled at a particular demographic by the US; and while it has by the locals, what're you gonna do? Send in the US Army as peacekeepers?

Motives are irrelevant, because anyone can claim any motive. If you burn down someone's house and say that you had no idea that fire+house would equal destruction, should you get off any easier? If the same result has been achieved by two parties, the same consequences should ensue. Every side will always attempt to potray their agression as necessary, minimal and beneficial, so that hardly counts for much, eh?

Who says I'm not? I would have thought that the vitriolic language I tend to use when describing those people should have made the depth of contempt I have for those peoples actions in Iraq.

Let me ask you this then Rictor. What do you think the UN should have done about the conflicts in Bosnia and Kosovo?

Yeah, but however much you, me or Bob down the street cast scorn on the Bush adminstration, it's perfectly clear than nothing will ever happen to them (as in trial, imprisonment etc). In my mind, if all criminals can't be punished equally, it's unjust to punish any.  To me, and you may well disagree, justice trumps safety as the basic cornerstone of a civilized order. If the international order can not provide justice, that is equal enforcement of the set rules for all, other issues are secondary. Creating such a double standard, and legitimizing it by continuing to enfore it (or tolerate it, depending on who you are), essentially allows one group (powerful/Western nations) to perpetrate violence with not only force on their side, but much more imporantly legitimacy. Punishing one person and not another for an equal crime gives the second person carte blanche to act with impunity, knowing that his exemption from the law will never be seriously questioned as long as he's able to deliver a steady stream of lesser, more cartoonishly evil criminals for the authories to concern themselves with. If Bush & Co were delivered to an internatinal court for indictment, if their countries were placed under sanctions and so on, I guarantee that you would never  hear another word out of me again regarding Kosovo, Bosnia etc. Because, frankly, it's OK to be screwed over, as long as you know everyone else is being screwed as well.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: What do you call it when 1.3m people are displaced and 100k killed?
Rictor, you didn't actually answer karas' question, did you?

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: What do you call it when 1.3m people are displaced and 100k killed?
Motives are irrelevant, because anyone can claim any motive. If you burn down someone's house and say that you had no idea that fire+house would equal destruction, should you get off any easier? If the same result has been achieved by two parties, the same consequences should ensue. Every side will always attempt to potray their agression as necessary, minimal and beneficial, so that hardly counts for much, eh?

To say that motives are irrevelant is specious, and your argument a particularly poor straw man. The ends do not justify the means, but they help. Anyone can claim any motive, yes. But they have to be able to back it up.

Regardless genocide implies intent; and this is something demonstrably not present on the part of the US.
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Offline Turambar

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Re: What do you call it when 1.3m people are displaced and 100k killed?
we like to call it freedom and democracy instead.
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Offline Knight Templar

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Re: What do you call it when 1.3m people are displaced and 100k killed?
Yugoslavia was bombed and invaded for far smaller numbers than this. But I guess it's absurd to hold everyone to the same standards, right?

It might just be me, but doesn't Iraq get bombed like, every day?

That's what I thought.
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Offline Rictor

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Re: What do you call it when 1.3m people are displaced and 100k killed?
To say that motives are irrevelant is specious, and your argument a particularly poor straw man. The ends do not justify the means, but they help. Anyone can claim any motive, yes. But they have to be able to back it up.
Regardless genocide implies intent; and this is something demonstrably not present on the part of the US.
OK, so is it any less wrong to kill 100 people intentionally as opposed to unintenionally*? Motives should not be mitigating circumstances. They matter in an anstract sense, but knowing that the person had no evil, diabolical plan to kill thousands doesn't make those thousands any less dead

*though I don't see how you can start a war and then claim that any deaths that ensue in the waging of that war are unintended. Every two-year old can tell you that wars kill, so the consequences could have been forseen relatively easily.

Rictor, you didn't actually answer karas' question, did you?
Let me ask you this then Rictor. What do you think the UN should have done about the conflicts in Bosnia and Kosovo?

Nothing. Europe, and indeed the world, has been engaged in almost constant war for more than two millenia. It is only in the past few decades, the blink of eye in historical terms, that Europe has embraced its new-found peacefullness and civility which they are so quick to hold over the the people of the great barbarian hinterlands (aka the world).  Every European leader of note in the past God knows how long would be tried as a war criminal if he were to live in the present day. So I think it's ever so slightly hypocritical that the two continents which perfected the art of war and empire, Europe and America, get up on their high horse and condemn all the the filthy savages who dare fire a shot in anger without asking permission first. Wars between neighbors, be they in the Balkans, Asia, Africa or elsewhere, are as frequent as they are inevtiable. Pretty much every inch of the Balkans has been taken and retaken two dozen times, and it's only this last time that the "international community", the West, has been appaled? Please. If you want to preach about peace and brotherly love, bring a priest. But don't expect me to take the sermon seriously from the heads of the most agressive continent in history. Don't expect me to take it seriously from what is perhaps the most warlike nation of the past half-century.

Like I said, if justice can not be administered equally, that is to say all wars punished, than it's absurd to pick-and-choose which wars are going to selectively be punished and which ones tolerated. Until I see every statesman responsible for leading his nation to war, from the highest to the lowest, on trial at the Hague, that institution has ho legitimacy because it is failing to perform its main duty which is to serve as an impartial court of justice.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: What do you call it when 1.3m people are displaced and 100k killed?
And the targeted killing of a specific civillian ethnic group?

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: What do you call it when 1.3m people are displaced and 100k killed?
As Aldo points out there is a difference between a war of occupation and genocide. Serbia had already been involved in two and you expected the west to sit back and allow them to go for the hatrick?
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Offline BlackDove

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Re: What do you call it when 1.3m people are displaced and 100k killed?
Yeah because, the US bombing Serbia was all about the genocide.

Hahahahahahaha.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: What do you call it when 1.3m people are displaced and 100k killed?
Wanna tell me what it was about then?
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