Author Topic: Capella story question  (Read 10182 times)

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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Capella story question
Ok, well i just had a brain fart, assuming that the GTVA can navigate subspace in the first place, It stands to reason they can detect it [obviously] and if they can detect it whos to say they cant use some sort of installation bound or cap bound *subspace radar* like a toned down awacs (sub on top of Fenithans could house more than comms) to traingulate whilst working in concert with other flotillas ?

additional-  Notice how the centaur/hygeia always jumps in within metres of Alpha one it must need a solid proximity lock after being given battlefield co-ords from command?
well if the tiny little resupply can be that accurate, whos to say the detecton tech doesnt work both ways, scale it up to match larger ships and there you go.

Ah, but it's about detecting the location of a ship in subspace, within subspace.  Because subspace is non-relativistic it would seem, to me, that the physical location of a ship between entry and exit point isn't necessarily easily predictable.  Plus, the support ship jumps in intra-system, which is instantaneous, so it would be able to plot a suitable arrival point given just the players' position from a transponder; there's no detection needed.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Capella story question
Are you saying detecting a ship "from within" subspace (whilst the detecting ship is in subpace i mean?)  If so, this discussion is now hurting my numericaly geared brain, Numbers i can juggle but physics hypothesis............. :eek2:
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Capella story question
Are you saying detecting a ship "from within" subspace (whilst the detecting ship is in subpace i mean?)  If so, this discussion is now hurting my numericaly geared brain, Numbers i can juggle but physics hypothesis............. :eek2:

Either/or.  It's unclear exactly how subspace tracking came into play; namely whether it allowed an entry 'vector' to put fighters (or, as intended, the Bastion) within the same non-relativistic position upon entry, or if it allowed ships to enter subspace and then move to the location.  (the former sounds more likely to me).

The thing about subspace is the n-dimensions, as pointed out.  It's like....
imagine you plot a location in xy; that's 2D, but we'll pretend it's realspace for this analogy; so the 2D position is analogous to the realspace location of a ship between systems
..then you have an xyz location; 3D... that means, a ship can still be located in xy, but also along an infinite number of z's.
..and then we have 4D, where we not only have xyz, but also something akin to time; even if you find the xyz position, you have to match timing
..and that's not even close to n-dimensions, which is so complicated the human mind can't really comprehend it*...essentially you're looking at a literal xyz co-ordinate in realspace terms, that can exist in any one of n*n 'slices' of subspace.  It's mental.

*but still a concept used.  Search engines, for example, map documents on an nth dimensional 'chart', where each word in the document collection has an axis (hence the nth dimensions), each document is mapped to the n co-ordinate position based on the term weightings for each axis, and the relative position on each of those term axes allows the similarity of documents mapped to be compared

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Capella story question
I'm down with xyz = 3d spacial reference. And i'm a i was a troop map and compass instructor/champion. The closest thing i can think of to this is the example set out in event horizon where he punches a hole through the paper and stargate where the 7 chevrons are a co-ordinate system......... somehow  :shaking:

the Event horizon ref is blazingly siimple to understand, but the Nth level addition just makes me think *nope* back to good old terra firma.
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Capella story question
Well, the human mind simply can't cope beyond 3d space plus time, AFAIK.  Nth dimension is simply impossible to conceptualize.

 

Offline CP5670

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Re: Capella story question
Quote
Well, the human mind simply can't cope beyond 3d space plus time, AFAIK.  Nth dimension is simply impossible to conceptualize.

eh, in math you run into higher (or even noninteger) dimensional sets everywhere. :p You just can't visualize them.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Capella story question
Ah, but it's about detecting the location of a ship in subspace, within subspace.  Because subspace is non-relativistic it would seem, to me, that the physical location of a ship between entry and exit point isn't necessarily easily predictable.  Plus, the support ship jumps in intra-system, which is instantaneous, so it would be able to plot a suitable arrival point given just the players' position from a transponder; there's no detection needed.


Where do you get this from?
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Capella story question
Quote
Well, the human mind simply can't cope beyond 3d space plus time, AFAIK.  Nth dimension is simply impossible to conceptualize.

eh, in math you run into higher (or even noninteger) dimensional sets everywhere. :p You just can't visualize them.

Um, that's what I meant by conceptualize.

( I already mentioned nspace document comparison, 'member?)

Ah, but it's about detecting the location of a ship in subspace, within subspace.  Because subspace is non-relativistic it would seem, to me, that the physical location of a ship between entry and exit point isn't necessarily easily predictable.  Plus, the support ship jumps in intra-system, which is instantaneous, so it would be able to plot a suitable arrival point given just the players' position from a transponder; there's no detection needed.


Where do you get this from?

FSRefBible.  Ok, sorry, it's nearly instantaneous, but thats more or less the same thing (implies ns type speed).

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Capella story question
In-system jumps probably take an amount of time relative to the size of the ship involved.

That's the only explaination I can make for support ships jumping in immediately but Mission 1 quite clearly stating that the Belisarius has jumped out and is being tracked through space only to have it appear 20-30 seconds later.
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Offline S-99

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Re: Capella story question
If you wanted to track something in subspace from outside of subspace. It would involve quantum mechanics. Trying to track something you know is there, but also something that is not there. To do an insystem tracking method for example for the quantum mechanics theory...you'd be tracking a ship you know is there(the ship that you know is insystem and you know has jumped and is doing an insystem jump). So you know the ship is there, and in system, but it's outside of normal space. Quantum  mechanics...dealing with something that's in two states at the same time, in this case...something that's there(in subspace), and also not there(not in normal space).

Hell, even quantum mechanics works for zombies with the term "undead" :lol: What the hell does undead mean? Is it alive or is it dead, well it's neither as dead as it is alive for the quantumly undead zombie in question :lol:
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Offline Sarafan

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Re: Capella story question
Quantum mechanics? Well, the Charybids has tachyons at least, the tech room description:

Ships of the GTA Charybdis class have been packed with the latest tachyon-enabled AWACS equipment from GTVI labs. Each GTVA battle group has a squadron of Charybdis-class ships assigned to it. These ships double the range of the group's standard detection arrays.

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Capella story question
Aren't Tachyons supposed to be completely non reactive? How would a Tachyon sensor work?

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Capella story question
In-system jumps probably take an amount of time relative to the size of the ship involved.

That's the only explaination I can make for support ships jumping in immediately but Mission 1 quite clearly stating that the Belisarius has jumped out and is being tracked through space only to have it appear 20-30 seconds later.

I would say that it probably has to do with distance.

Reinforcements and support ships are waiting close by - they have their jump drives charged, the coordinates ready. So a few seconds for them to arrive sounds logical.

Ships jumping from one end of the system to another would take more time naturally.
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Capella story question
It doesn't exactly take the player long to charge their intrasystem drive, I note........

 

Offline S-99

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Re: Capella story question
Yeah, quantum theory is how you will track a ship in subspace. The ship in subspace is neither there(in system but not in space), and the ship in subspace is also there(in subspace doing an insystem jump).
I mean how else are you supposed to track a ship in pretty much another dimension? But if you wanted to, you could word that different and make it sound actually possible by saying how are you supposed to track a ship in a different layer of space?
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Capella story question
It doesn't exactly take the player long to charge their intrasystem drive, I note........

Well, the player jumps in, spends SEVERL MINUTEs in a mission and then jumps out.

I've yet to say any ship in FS1 or FS2 that jumps in and then immediately jumps out.

the support and reinforcements prolly wait VERY clsoe by (on the order of 1-2 LS) while jumping from one end of athe system frpom another is a FAR greater distance.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Capella story question
I've yet to say any ship in FS1 or FS2 that jumps in and then immediately jumps out.

Pay more attention to the enemy Hercs in the first mission then. Cancer wing jump out the second the Psamtik arrives regardless of how long they've spent in the mission. I've seen them jump in and then disappear 10 seconds later on several occassions.
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Re: Capella story question
I've seen Nephilims jump in and then INSTANTLY jump out in FS1. Where you must protect the Beta Aquilae Comm Station, they always jump in right as the Hope moves into position (which triggers their departure).
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Capella story question
It doesn't exactly take the player long to charge their intrasystem drive, I note........

Well, the player jumps in, spends SEVERAL MINUTEs in a mission and then jumps out.

I've yet to see any ship in FS1 or FS2 that jumps in and then immediately jumps out.

the support and reinforcements probably wait VERY close by (on the order of 1-2 LS) while jumping from one end of the system from another is a FAR greater distance.

I'm sorry, I don't see your point.  What's stopping any ship from being pre-charged in that case?  What about the players' ship, y'know, using energy to travel about; does that entail every fighter (and presumably large ship) thus has a charging power reserve unaffected by other energy usage? Does this energy just arise in the drive magically?  If it's charging constantly, then why do you have to take your hands off the control (in effect) when you jump out and press a special abort button?

Why are you assuming support ships in particular have their 'co-ordinates' ready, when they arrive a fixed distance from the callee ship (which can be in any location, given that a) they can be called at any time and b) we don't know where support ships are assigned to).

In fact, we don't know if support ships themselves just sit round waiting.  Firstly it's pretty stupid to do so - they go down very easily, and they have an increased shockwave so you don't want them sitting too close to friendly ships.  Secondly we don't know how many there are and whether there can be one assigned to each 'action' area (because there's never just one fight going on).  Oh, and thirdly there's also the issue of replacement support ships that get called in, too.

So, EVEN USING UNNECESSARILY POINTLESS CAPS doesn't really mean there's anything but a piece of hypothetical guesswork in your statement, there; you've assumed a remarkable amount of things; that the players jumpdrive charges unnoticeably in the background, the location of support ships, the number and tactical assignment of support ships, the location of reinforcements.... oh, and try hitting alt-j right at the start of a mission, eh?

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Capella story question
I reckon by the fact theres a cycle up sound when you press ALT+J, it shows that it only takes a few seconds to charge a jump drive of either type. With regards to Capships charging,  When the Aquitaine or Pinnacle have to charge their drives, thats only after major core / engine repairs. FS1 + 2 show numerous ships jumping instantly following a Jump oreder from command, And their jump out speed is much higher than the (is it 40 or 60?) required minimum for a fighter or bomber.



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