[Rictor]

Hezbollah are a terorist organisation operating in Southern Lebanon. They aren't democratically elected and they aren't doing what they do with the consent of the majority of the Lebanese people. You could make the same argument that the IRA were in Northern Island as an excuse for sending the tanks into NI and it would be just as wrong there.
 If Hezbollah are not representative of the country they are operating in then it is a civil matter plain and simple. Israel should be supporting the government in removing Hezbollah not invading and attacking the very government whose job it is to deal with these people.

I disagree. First of all, they (with allies) hold about 1/4 of the seat in the Lebanese parliament. Secondly, I've read recent surveys which say that something like 75%-80% of Lebanese sympathize with hezbollah. It may not be a peticularly appealing concept, but Hezbollah does indeed enjoy widespread support, just like Hamas.

Bur I completely agree with you that this war isn't going to harm Hezbollah one bit. The Israeli government can't possibly be so short-sighted as to not see that. Actually, the conflict may have given Hezbollah a new lease on life. Because as long as Lebanon was stable and Israel stayed away, it's kind of hard to justify an armed resistance movement. But now that Lebanon is under attack,  it's perfectly clear that there is only one group who can even remotely stand up to Israel, and that's the good ol' Party of God.

[karajorma]

I disagree. First of all, they (with allies) hold about 1/4 of the seat in the Lebanese parliament. Secondly, I've read recent surveys which say that something like 75%-80% of Lebanese sympathize with hezbollah. It may not be a peticularly appealing concept, but Hezbollah does indeed enjoy widespread support, just like Hamas.

There is a difference between having widespread support and actually being the elected government though. Which was the point I was making. The IRA and several of the loyalist groups had widespread support too.

That's why I've always made the point that defeating terrorism comes by removing their grass roots support. The actions which remove the terrorists themselves generally have the effect of making more people want to be terrorists themselves.

[vyper]

So, **** hit the fan this morning eh?

[aldo_14]

So, **** hit the fan this morning eh?

The **** has not so much hit the fan as the fan has been buried in 10 tonnes of excrement air-dropped from a very high height

[Sandwich]

That it did.

I heard a report that the IDF's investigation into the Qana incident turned up some interesting facts... am trying to find verification online now.

[Sandwich]

Ah, here we go, front and center. I wonder how soon non-Israeli news sources will run this story.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283816,00.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/744332.html
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153292036218&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

The summary is that the IDF struck the building that collapsed between 12am and 1am local time, and yet the building only collapsed at 8am. They are so far unable to explain the time gap.

[Shade]

It's not unheard of for damaged buildings to take a while before actually collapsing. As I recall, both of the WTC towers were still standing over an hour after they were struck, but they're not exactly standing now.

Once the structural integrity is compromised, it would really take very little to provide the final straw for it to collapse, and that could pretty much be anything. Tiny earthquake, nearby explosion, sonic boom, attempts to clear wreckage, or indeed, as I've seen suggested on several news outlets by now, possibly foul play. But it's impossible to say at this point, and I doubt any unbiased investigators (non-israeli and non-lebanese, specifically, as in a case like this neither side can really be trusted to not spin it in their favour) are going to have a chance to have a look at it anytime soon.

[vyper]

Holy **** Israel just suspended their air raids.

[vyper]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5229932.stm

[Fear]

 
Thats all i have to say, as sandwich said above me, there was an unexplained time-gap the the IAF cant
explaine. As the IAF said they were reacting to the launching that was happing in that area(showed evidence of missles launching from there aswell), The third strike was the one happend in that area. The IAF though cant explaine how 7 hours after the strike the building had another explosion and collapsed. How the hell in that 7 hours after the strike there were still children and women (the suprising thing no men there,i mean WTF) there that didnt run out, our human insticnt say we should run after somethling like that happens. People in here speaking of consiparcy with so many question, 7 hours later?,only women and children?,maybe its a stock of missles that got trigged 7 hours later and made the building collapse,maybe its a scheme to make the world pressure israel and therfore let the terroist regather thier forces, or maybe it really happend from the israel strike.Either way shame, but that gives no excuse to stop IAF for a duartion of 48 hours, such a bad decision.

[Mefustae]

Wait, wait, wait... you're implying it's bad that International pressure has enticed Israel to call of bombing and give civilians a 24-hour grace to get out of dodge?

Wow, you suck.

[Bobboau]

well, you could look at it like it's bad because it'll give Hezbollah a chance to move to a better fortified position thus ensureing that 'damage to Hezbollah' (also known as 'the one good thing that might come out of this') is minimized.

[karajorma]

So wait a second. Now we're hearing the story that people in Lebanon waited until a building had been shelled, filled it with their own women and children and then collapsed it so as to cause widespread international condemnation?

No wonder Israel finds it so easy to get people to support the invasion if they can get people to buy that kind of paranoid fantasy.

[aldo_14]

Did anyone see the story on the (BBC) news about Israeli reporting of the war?

Thats all i have to say, as sandwich said above me, there was an unexplained time-gap the the IAF cant
explaine. As the IAF said they were reacting to the launching that was happing in that area(showed evidence of missles launching from there aswell), The third strike was the one happend in that area. The IAF though cant explaine how 7 hours after the strike the building had another explosion and collapsed. How the hell in that 7 hours after the strike there were still children and women (the suprising thing no men there,i mean WTF) there that didnt run out, our human insticnt say we should run after somethling like that happens. People in here speaking of consiparcy with so many question, 7 hours later?,only women and children?,maybe its a stock of missles that got trigged 7 hours later and made the building collapse,maybe its a scheme to make the world pressure israel and therfore let the terroist regather thier forces, or maybe it really happend from the israel strike.Either way shame, but that gives no excuse to stop IAF for a duartion of 48 hours, such a bad decision.

Finally, a quote matching the stupidity of 'this is an act of war' in relation to the Gitmo suicides.

[vyper]

Is there an online version of that story mate? I couldn't find one myself.

[aldo_14]

Is there an online version of that story mate? I couldn't find one myself.

Don't think so, natch.  It was basically analysing the Israeli broadsheets and pointed out how the Israelis were being shown a different war to the rest of the world, with little or no reporting of civillian casualties, the massive international criticism, the aid crisis, etc.  It was quite shocking, really, because it did appear there was very little 'balanced' reporting of the consequences, even in comparison to how British papers cover/ed the war in Iraq.

I think it might have been on the morning news a few days ago, not sure.

[Sandwich]

So wait a second. Now we're hearing the story that people in Lebanon waited until a building had been shelled, filled it with their own women and children and then collapsed it so as to cause widespread international condemnation?

No wonder Israel finds it so easy to get people to support the invasion if they can get people to buy that kind of paranoid fantasy.

I'm not pointing the finger of blame for the collapse of the building at the Hezbollah - not yet, anyway - but I will defend that the possibility is not merely a "paranoid fantasy". You find it hard to believe that an organization that has intentionally murdered so many of their own Lebanese opponents would have any qualms about, say, trapping some random Lebanese civvies in a building (or tricking them to go in in the name of saftey or whatever) and blowing it up (the "paranoid fantasy" scenario I assume we're all thinking of) if they could gain such a tremendous political/world opinion advantage from it?

Again, I'm not (yet) accusing them of having done so. I'm merely stating that the possibility is not as whacko as you seem to think it is.

It was basically analysing the Israeli broadsheets and pointed out how the Israelis were being shown a different war to the rest of the world, with little or no reporting of civillian casualties, the massive international criticism, the aid crisis, etc.  It was quite shocking, really, because it did appear there was very little 'balanced' reporting of the consequences, even in comparison to how British papers cover/ed the war in Iraq.

Hmm. I'd invite you to watch the daily updated www.jerusalemonline.com web feed. It's a direct rebroadcasting of Israel's Channel 2 news (the main TV news channel here), dubbed into English. I'd be mighty curious to hear your comments and thoughts after watching it for a week or so - it's essentially the exact same news overview (it's only 5 minutes per day I think) that everyone else in Israel gets.

Obviously at 5 minutes per day, and with the current situation, a lot of it will be Israel-centric. But that's kinda the point of what you want to know, isn't it?

[Fear]

Finally, a quote matching the stupidity of 'this is an act of war' in relation to the Gitmo suicides.

Cant find why though, please enlight me why .Or are u just mad i called u a retard 3 pages ago?

[aldo_14]

Finally, a quote matching the stupidity of 'this is an act of war' in relation to the Gitmo suicides.

Cant find why though, please enlight me why

I believe Kara explained it succinctly;

So wait a second. Now we're hearing the story that people in Lebanon waited until a building had been shelled, filled it with their own women and children and then collapsed it so as to cause widespread international condemnation?

No wonder Israel finds it so easy to get people to support the invasion if they can get people to buy that kind of paranoid fantasy.

Or are u just mad i called u a retard 3 pages ago?

You called me a retard?

[Sandwich]

I believe Kara explained it succinctly;

So wait a second. Now we're hearing the story that people in Lebanon waited until a building had been shelled, filled it with their own women and children and then collapsed it so as to cause widespread international condemnation?

No wonder Israel finds it so easy to get people to support the invasion if they can get people to buy that kind of paranoid fantasy.

Actually, Kara put words in Fear's mouth (so to speak). Read the two posts carefully. The closest Fear got to saying anything like what Kara implied he was saying was "maybe its a scheme to make the world pressure israel and therfore let the terroist regather thier forces".

Of course, Kara never specifically said that Fear said what Kara implied he said (confused yet?), so we're all jumping at nothing, really.

Just pointing it out.