[aldo_14]

Wait, so 1000+ of their civilians dead isn't enough of a deciding factor? What the hell are these idiots waiting for?!

They're scared of a civil war when the Lebanese Army tries to move on/disarm Hezbollah, I'd imagine.

[Sandwich]

I can't say I blame them.

More than 1,000 Lebanese have been killed in the conflict since Hezbollah militants captured two Israeli soldiers on 12 July in a cross-border raid. Israel's official death toll stood at 163 on Sunday, including 43 civilians.

Incidentally, since Hezbollah aren't exactly going around in flashy Hezzie uniforms, has anyone heard any stats regarding how many of the 1,000+ dead Lebanese were armed at the time?

[Mefustae]

So, what does everyone think about Israel squeezing everything they can out of the conflict before the ceasefire goes into effect, launching one of the biggest incursions of this conflict including the largest paratrooper deployment since '73. Going out with a literal bang, eh?

[Sandwich]

You're so one-sided you make me sick. Or were you innocently misled by the media into thinking that Israel was the only one "squeezing everything" they could into the last minutes?

[aldo_14]

Perhaps he was criticising Israel bombing infrastructure targets just hours prior to the ceasefire?

[Mefustae]

I'm just calling it as I see it; Israel launching a massive op to try and damage Hezbollah as much as they can before the ceasefire. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it's a bit off, like it gives off the message that Israel won't acknowledge the invasion was possibly a bad idea, and sees the ceasefire as an obstacle in the persuit of their goals.

[aldo_14]

I'm just calling it as I see it; Israel launching a massive op to try and damage Hezbollah as much as they can before the ceasefire. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it's a bit off, like it gives off the message that Israel won't acknowledge the invasion was possibly a bad idea, and sees the ceasefire as an obstacle in the persuit of their goals.

Apparently the Israeli military was pissed off at there being a ceasefire, so that's exactly what they were doing. I'm not sure the IDF has actually achieved anything in this war beyond turning most of the world against them and giving a Hezbollah a recruiting call for the next 20 years (and once more we're relying on the UN to sort out this mess, I note).

It is worth, of course, emphasizing that both sides were going at each other hammer-and-tongs yesterday.

[NGTM-1R]

Actually they may have accomplished a lot. The problem is nobody's publishing casuality figures for Hezbollah.

The Katyushas, for example; those things aren't exactly stuff you make in your backyard. How many has Hezbollah expended, what was their total supply? You launch them off the back of trucks; how many of the trucks are left, and how many of them got blasted by IDF aircraft or artillery? The mechanics who keep the trucks running?

Furthermore how many years of recruiting has the set back Hezbollah? Everybody else who's fought the IDF has gotten mauled; there's no reason to believe things were any different. They've probably lost hundreds of people; perhaps more. It will take years to make up their losses from the IDF...and they're not exactly out of the woods yet.

[aldo_14]

Actually they may have accomplished a lot. The problem is nobody's publishing casuality figures for Hezbollah.

The Katyushas, for example; those things aren't exactly stuff you make in your backyard. How many has Hezbollah expended, what was their total supply? You launch them off the back of trucks; how many of the trucks are left, and how many of them got blasted by IDF aircraft or artillery? The mechanics who keep the trucks running?

Furthermore how many years of recruiting has the set back Hezbollah? Everybody else who's fought the IDF has gotten mauled; there's no reason to believe things were any different. They've probably lost hundreds of people; perhaps more. It will take years to make up their losses from the IDF...and they're not exactly out of the woods yet.

And how many people do you think are more willing to join Hezbollah now?  The whole point is that any terrorist or insurgent network gains support from engaging a larger foe; it's very much the 'plucky underdog' effect that gives them strength, allowing the justification of the likes of terrorist attacks as a response to an inability to fight symmetrically.  Terrorists aren't measured in military strength; they're measured in their ability to operate within a civillian population, and with the tacit support of that population.  I don't think Israel has done anything to erode that support base  - I'd say history proves the opposite will occur, with short term losses being recuperated by the desire for revenge in South Lebanon.

Plus, the likes of Iran and Syria certainly won't be any more scared to provide military and financial resources to Hezbollah; they've proven themselves a very useful proxy in this war by 'forcing' the IDF to kill hundreds of civillians and significantly set back the Lebanese democracy whilst still failing to wipe out Hezbollah (why else would they be continuously escalating the IDF presence & actions right up to the point of ceasefire?).  I can't help but think this war has been nothing more than the futile pissing away of lives on both side - yet again.

[Sandwich]

I'm just calling it as I see it; Israel launching a massive op to try and damage Hezbollah as much as they can before the ceasefire. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it's a bit off, like it gives off the message that Israel won't acknowledge the invasion was possibly a bad idea, and sees the ceasefire as an obstacle in the persuit of their goals.

Sorry I was pissed earlier. All I meant was that you seemed to be echoing one-sided media reports (as opposed to two-sided, yes, I know they exist). Israel was hit by 250 Katyushas yesterday in a last minute Hezbollah escalation, and yet all you mentioned was Israel's escalation. Just annoys me is all.

[Sandwich]

Heh. Hehehe.

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[Sandwich]

Oh, and a report from directly up north is that some dim-wit in the Hezbollah already fired on IDF forces and broke the cease-fire. Not that that surprised anyone. I think it was "just" small arms fire.

[Mefustae]

I'm just calling it as I see it; Israel launching a massive op to try and damage Hezbollah as much as they can before the ceasefire. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it's a bit off, like it gives off the message that Israel won't acknowledge the invasion was possibly a bad idea, and sees the ceasefire as an obstacle in the persuit of their goals.

Sorry I was pissed earlier. All I meant was that you seemed to be echoing one-sided media reports (as opposed to two-sided, yes, I know they exist). Israel was hit by 250 Katyushas yesterday in a last minute Hezbollah escalation, and yet all you mentioned was Israel's escalation. Just annoys me is all.

No need to apologise, I didn't know that, and hence I was trying to make an argument with only half the information. But still, you've got to admit that by launching the largest freaking paratrooper deployment in 30 years mere hours before the guns are to fall silent, Israel is sort of thumbing their noses at the ceasefire.

[aldo_14]

It's expected that sporadic ground fighting will continue anyways; Hezbollah have vowed to attack any Israeli soldier still on Lebanese soil, and Israel in turn will (and claim the right to under the UN resolution) return fire and retaliate with counter-attacks.  In my mind it's crucial to get that UN/Lebanese army buffer force in there ASAP in order to prevent any sort of re-escalation of violence.

[Mefustae]

Just wondering; has Israel formally occupied Southern Lebanon, or is their stay simply temporary for the duration of the op?

[aldo_14]

Just wondering; has Israel formally occupied Southern Lebanon, or is their stay simply temporary for the duration of the op?

Staying until a UN force occupies it.  I'm not sure, offhand, if that includes the Lebanese army moving into the south.

[Sandwich]

No need to apologise, I didn't know that, and hence I was trying to make an argument with only half the information. But still, you've got to admit that by launching the largest freaking paratrooper deployment in 30 years mere hours before the guns are to fall silent, Israel is sort of thumbing their noses at the ceasefire.

Offhand, where have you heard about this paratrooper deployment? I haven't read a thing.

Just wondering; has Israel formally occupied Southern Lebanon, or is their stay simply temporary for the duration of the op?

Staying until a UN force occupies it.  I'm not sure, offhand, if that includes the Lebanese army moving into the south.

"Within 72 hours", supposedly.

Incidentally, if anyone was interested in statistics:

Since fighting erupted 34 days ago, 166 Israelis were killed - 114 IDF soldiers and 52 civilians.

Lebanon said 791 people had been killed since July 12. According to the IDF, at least 530 were Hizbullah guerillas.

[aldo_14]

The Lebanese Health Ministry doesn't report on Hezbollah casualties, reportedly.

[Mefustae]

No need to apologise, I didn't know that, and hence I was trying to make an argument with only half the information. But still, you've got to admit that by launching the largest freaking paratrooper deployment in 30 years mere hours before the guns are to fall silent, Israel is sort of thumbing their noses at the ceasefire.

Offhand, where have you heard about this paratrooper deployment? I haven't read a thing.

Printed news; didn't buy the paper, just read it while waiting in line at the shop. I know it's far from the most reliable thing in the world, but why would they mention a Paratrooper deployment being the largest since the 1973 something-or-other if there weren't a smigin of truth in it.

[Sandwich]

Well do me a favor and find anything online to back it up; I cannot find ANYthing.

Actually, it could have just been a trick in wording.. the paratroopers operate as a more elite infantry unit when not proving themselves to be insane by jumping out of flying things. It could simply have been saying that the paratroopers were used heavily in this war, the most heaviest since 1973. Or something like that.

Anyway, I doubt it was an actual parachute deployment, as in, a ton of 'em jumping out of planes.