[Tolwyn]

Isn't that would CIC would do?

I recommend leaving it open.  Encourage the fans not to beat a dead horse, but be willing to answer questions if they ask.

Calm down, Sternie

[Starman01]

I am calm, just want to keep things away from spreading any further

[Sphynx]

It's okay. I've said all I think I really should say (and probably a bit more than that, actually).

I appreciate that Starman is trying to keep this from elevating into a bashing/flaming session. We all need to vent sometimes, but certainly we don't want to do it in a way that ends up causing more problems.

That being said, Dishwasher, tell anyone you know who wants to know about how Saga is doing to come here. We are happy to answer questions, provide updated, etc...

BTW, I can tell Starman is still calm. Notice the . If he was angry, we might see a  or a  or if we really got under his skin he might just go ahead and fire a torpedo at that destructable underwear drawer we have been talking about. We wouldn't want that to happen, would we?

[Bandit LOAF]

I didn't especially want to post here, but KrisV asked me to post a proper reply before we move to further shut off our connections to the Saga project.

The argument made here about me is purposefully inaccurate. Yes, it is true - distinctly true - that I dislike Freespace and blame it for the cancellation of Privateer Online. These are, as suggested here, simple facts about me that can be easily verified in our archive.

What does not follow, however, is how this is connected to the Saga mod. Ask yourselves: if my hatred of Freespace were connected to a desire to do in Saga, why would it take *five years*? Five years of paying to host their site, five years of running their forums, five years of glowing news reports on our front page. The idea that your recent problems can be blamed on a flew in a single man is entirely wrong.

Furthermore, it was not *my* decision to remove the Wing Commander from the Saga. It was the decision of the entire staff, a group of people who usually function from keeping me in check when I make rash mistakes. You're not facing an angry LOAF, you're facing everyone.

Many facts above are similarly misleading. For instance, the claim that czachen's post was removed without comment - there is, quite literally, a comment explaining why it was removed (it was done at his request). Claims of secret deleted posts are wild and inaccurate - looking at our archive can well show why anyone was banned.

Consider this in casting me as the sole villain preventing 'Wing Commander/Freespace relations'  - I don't post here. How could I possibly be the aggressor? No - it's people like an0n and Kalefierth and Sphynx who come to the Wing Commander side of the street and intentionally start trouble... and then come back here and blame it in grand obscurity on the people whose job it is to shut them down.Y es, Sphynx has been banned - but not for any of the grand lofty reasons he's given you... he came to troll and stayed to insult me personally. Boo.

The Saga team was banned and Saga was banned from our news because they have been harassing other mod teams - Freelancer, Nexus and, yes, Homeworld groups. They believe that their decision to copy 3D models from Wing Commander III somehow gives them control over those ships entirely and that they must police the world against anyone else who would dare use ships from the most popular game in the Wing Commander series.

They *know* this is wrong, and so contact people like Bob McDob privately to threaten them. We let them do this and it ruined two projects. If you don't find Saga in the news or a Saga link from the front page at the CIC, *this is why*. We can't stand it no longer.

It is *not* out of hatred for Freespace - a search of our archives will quickly find my joking about how putting Wing Commander into the game will improve Freespace immensly - but because of the actions of the team itself. The project looks great, it should be fun and it certainly sucks that we can't promote it or host it or anything of that sort... but their egos have damaged the rest of the community, and we absolutely had to put a stop to it.

There, that's it, my "right of reply". Do with it what you will - anyone may contact me privately to discuss the matter further.

[Sphynx]

The funny thing is that he is denying deleted posts, etc... to Dishwasher when Dishwasher himself has stated that he has seen them (thing is, I can think of 2 entire threads that were mysteriously deleted off the top of my head: The one in which I was orignially banned and then the one with our press release talking about the magazine article. As I recall, there were others as well. There were enough that this time, we had the common sense to make a copy of a post we knew would be deleted. How could we predict something would be deleted if it hadn't happened before? Food for thought.).

"That thing you noticed isn't really happening."

It kind of makes you question the rest of his reasoning.

[Sphynx]

Seems that I got someone's attention over there, as now the thread about the article is accessible again.

Very clever.

[Sphynx]

Oh, and for the record, this is in which the phrase that was taken as a personal attack was located.

http://www.crius.net/zone/showpost.php?p=302313&postcount=36

Read it. Does it sound like I was trying to attack him? I certainly wasn't, and I had no idea he had a history of some visual problems (which I certainly sympathise with, my sister is totally deaf and so I know what that general category of things can be like). What I was saying is that I have a hard time expressing my intent over the internet, but that I thought if we could speak face to face and see eye to ey, he would get the point that I was sincere and not faking my attitude.

I even apologized for the incident, since I could see how he could have taken it that way. For me, I was just using a commonly used phrase in my part of the country, and had no idea it could sound offensive.

I say these things, not as an attack, but as an opportunity to tell the truth about myself and what happened and as an opportunity to let people see how some people's perception of us as individuals and as a team may be somewhat inaccurate.

[Edward Bradshaw]

What does not follow, however, is how this is connected to the Saga mod. Ask yourselves: if my hatred of Freespace were connected to a desire to do in Saga, why would it take *five years*? Five years of paying to host their site, five years of running their forums, five years of glowing news reports on our front page. .

I find it hard to understand how you can imply youve been all lovey dovey to Saga for all these years. Noone from Saga has done anything "wrong" for a long time yet now most of the Staff is banned because you jumped to false conclusions. Anyone whos been following this for a certian length of time knows this was just the final excuse you needed to get rid of the mod you've hated since the beginning. Its just a shame for you it was based on an entirely made up claim, but presumably you had already taken it too far to take anything back without making yourself look bad.

the idea that your recent problems can be blamed on a flew in a single man is entirely wrong

"Entirely wrong"? ...Okay lets think about it.

1. It was you that first implied it was us in the Homeworld thread (your post which for the moment at least is still around)
2. It was you that first accused us in the Saga forum, (as we can see in the thread that has been brought back to life)
3. It was you that banned most of the staff.

I'll let others decide how these facts relate to your above comment!   

Many facts above are similarly misleading. For instance, the claim that czachen's post was removed without comment - there is, quite literally, a comment explaining why it was removed (it was done at his request).

Well where is it then? As  far as I can see there is no mention to the fact that Saga had nothing to do with the czacen insident at all aside from 2 unregistered people that were brushed off, but theres still lots of posts about how Saga has been harrassing czacen. If someone were to only see what you let them see, I wonder if you think that would give them an accurate impression of the situation. Notice how when Dishwater posted his message he still had no idea czacen already said it wasnt us. Think about it.

The Saga team was banned and Saga was banned from our news because they have been harassing other mod teams - ..., Homeworld groups

So even though czacen said we had nothing to do with it, and you seem to acknolwedge reading his post, Saga are still guilty of harassing czacen? How does that make sence!    Any lukers reading this should take note. 

They believe that their decision to copy 3D models from Wing Commander III somehow gives them control over those ships entirely and that they must police the world against anyone else who would dare use ships from the most popular game in the Wing Commander series.

Thats a strawman, and I think you may even be starting to believe it yourself.

Claims of secret deleted posts are wild and inaccurate - looking at our archive can well show why anyone was banned.

Several posts were made in the Homeworld thread about how we were responsible, and a news post in the Saga forum got mysteriously deleted (along with banning most of the staff) after several comments by you and a few others that said Saga were harrassing czacen. After czacen said we had nothing to do with it, you didnt take back your comments or set the record straight. People were still posting that Saga were harrassing czacen in another thread, even when czacen had already exonerated us,  and no one corrected them. Why would you allow these people to believe this?  To me it looks like "certian people" want to keep quiet the fact that they made a mistake.

It is true that some members of Saga made some mistakes in the past and have apologised for them, but some people dont seem to care if Saga didnt do anything to czacen, we will always be guilty, forever, and anyone can make up whatever they like about Saga in the future and its all perfectly fine and honest.  I think this whole Homeworld harassing buisness has shown certian people to be pretty cowardly, becuase they cant stand up and say they were wrong.

Im only sorry that so many CIC people will not know what really happened. I have no ill will against the CIC, apparently just the actions of a few that control it which is also a shame.


EDIT: Yes we can see why people were banned, since the thread you deleted originally has returned to life. You banned most of the Staff because you said they were harrassing czacen.

[Sphynx]

Ed,

It's okay to post if you keep it civil. It's okay for us to state the truth here. We aren't out to attack anyone, but we have a right to say what we have been prevented from saying.

[Edward Bradshaw]

I dont know why they undeleted this thread, it shows a good example of what I was talking about in my post. What do people think when they see a thread like this? What are they meant to think? Everyone knows the answer.

http://www.crius.net/zone/showthread.php?t=20327

Notice how Loaf says he "knows" it was us, well now we know he made that up. He didnt know at all. But anyone else that didnt know better would just assume he'd actually checked his facts.

But this behaviour is presumably considered honest and perfectly legitimate.

I still cant find this post Loaf talked about which explained why czacens post got deleted. If its so hard to find, it might as well not exist, especially as this thread has appeard again. The only place I can see that suggests czacen already said we didnt do anything is from a couple of unregistered people in another thread, if it werent for those posts theres nothing I can see.

[Sphynx]

They undeleted it because I said they deleted it, as I mentioned earlier.

This is as per the modus operandi that we have been talking about. Mind games and manipulation.

We delete it, Sphynx says we deleted it, we undelete it and then accuse Sphynx of lying.

Pretty simple.

[Sphynx]

The Saga team was banned and Saga was banned from our news because they have been harassing other mod teams - Freelancer, Nexus and, yes, Homeworld groups. They believe that their decision to copy 3D models from Wing Commander III somehow gives them control over those ships entirely and that they must police the world against anyone else who would dare use ships from the most popular game in the Wing Commander series.

Let me clear this up, too. We did have some members of our team who were upset because someone from a Freelancer mod seemed to be using the actual textures that one of our team members had created without giving credit. It is just a matter of courtesty to acknowledge the people's work whom you have used. The issue was not that they were using WC3 ships. Saga did not claim ownership of WC3 ship designs or textures, but some team members wanted the courtesy of having others ask before using textures that we have created (that reproduce WC3 textures) and then give proper recognition. Quarto and Eder have done the same thing with people using their models and textures in other projects, such as the WC1 remake.

Now, we have clearly admitted that some of our team members overreacted in that instance, and we have apologized profusely. We have not acted that way again, and certainly the team's intentions were never to kill that mod.

Saying that we claimed ownership of WC3 designs and textures is plain and simple a straw man argument. It takes no skill to beat up a straw man.

Yes, some members of our team made mistakes then, but we have done all we can to make things right, and we do what we can to support other fan projects.

[Sphynx]

It is *not* out of hatred for Freespace - a search of our archives will quickly find my joking about how putting Wing Commander into the game will improve Freespace immensly.

Doesn't that sound more like a put down and less like a joke to anyone else?

A search of their archives will also reveal a great deal of hatred for Freespace and direct criticism of us for using the FS engine, so I don't see how this can be valid.

Once again, we have no ill will towards anyone at the CIC. We regret that these hard feelings exist against us, especially because our best efforts at reconciliation seem to have failed.

[Starman01]

Not exactly right Sphynx, let me clear this up a little.

Well, the freelancer-Mod. What should I say that I didn't said very often  Really big error from me, born in a very emotional moment and resulted in a harsh thread. But I was angry about having one of our models (not only the textures) which was to that time still in our mod,( we have removed it now) seeing used unaltered in another mod. It should have been done in a more civilized manner, but I can't make it unhappen now. Though I have apologized and cleared things out personal with warzog, and at least for us two the issue was solved. It's sad that other people can't get over this too. BTW, I also apologized in a bigger post by the entire public, but unfortuntely that thread got deleted too. Have it your way.

It certainly didn't killed the mod   Members were already leaving, and warzog continued his work (even if he said he planned on leaving before this **** happened) for nearly a year and was releasing stuff.

Regarding the Homeworld-Mod, like said many times, we had nothing to do with that. This was posted from both sides, now people cannot move around and yell " it must have been the saga-team, they did something similar one year ago, and now we Know they are all asses". What's the next we are being marked guilty for ? Global warming ? Come on, that's hilarious.

As for the nexus-mod, a little clarification would be appreciated. Were are the problems there ? I heard nothing negative, nor did we had any contact in such a manner. So what's the matter ?

[Sphynx]

Thanks for the clarification, Starman. Like I said, I wasn't a team member then.

I certainly wasn't trying to criticize you. We all make mistakes, and I respect you for how you tried to fix things.

(P.S. I just got a PM from Al Gore. He said the Bush administration is to blame for global warming, so at least we aren't being blamed for that.)

[Dishwasher]

Still it is bullock's oc to hold right's over models that are created by origin.. that's the ****ed up thing about making mods..
IE

I pissed of quite a lot of audio traders because I released QOTSA concerts in a more user friendly mp3 format instead of FLAC. Tapers and traders hoding rights over a bands audio is just retarded.

Weird thing is though.. back in the day I was working on the UT mod Tolwyn actually offered me SAGA meshes and textures to use.
How is that for blockading fan mods.

[Starman01]

Still it is bullock's oc to hold right's over models that are created by origin.. that's the ****ed up thing about making mods..

The rights for WC, the models design and everything else is of course property of Origin (probably for the next 1000 years ) and we never declined (sp?) that.
But AFAIK this model has been completly remodelled and textured, and that's why the re-creator deserve credits for all his work IMO. It then turned out, that the credits weren't the the problem in this matter (I was badly mistaken with that), since warzog had a "additional models by WC-Saga" in his credits. It was more the fact that we were using this model and it wasn't meant for being released elsewhere. (Since Tolwyn once was in this mod too, there were some cooperation with older models, but that hasn't included that one). But as I said, this issue is cleared out and we found an agreement with Warzog.

BTW, what does IE means in your post ?

P.S. as Goober suggested, I keep the thread open. Discussing the problem might help solve it. Just keep it clean guys

[Edward Bradshaw]

Weird thing is though.. back in the day I was working on the UT mod Tolwyn actually offered me SAGA meshes and textures to use.
How is that for blockading fan mods.

Exactly, and as far as I know Saga will come with (at least eventually) the ability for fans to take what was done in the mod and use it to make their own mods for WC in the FS engine. If Saga hates other Wing Commander mods so much as certain people make out (they literally say that) why on earth would Saga allow people to do this?!    Isnt that just ridiculous? So "certian people" have demonized Saga, and thats the only correct word to describe it.

[Dishwasher]

BTW, what does IE means your post?

Honestly I dunno... playing guitar and reading and replying into this forum screws my typing .
I am btw offended by the way topics get locked and dissapear/reapear on the CIC forum... that's not right.
That topic with the article I am pretty sure it wasn't there this morning.

[Dishwasher]

It seems more and more to me that there has been some enormous miscommunication between SAGA and CIC.