[Sandwich]

Yeah, it's a massive overreaction. Flights aren't more dangerous now than they were two days ago - They're safer, given that the bad guys were caught. This kind of post-incident show of force is meaningless except in the targeted areas (which would be Heathrow and definitely not the carribbean).

I heard someone say that there were still 5 (?) suspects at large...

[aldo_14]

Suspects being the operative word.  From what I recall, one suspect has already been released without charge, and the BBC visited one of the locations (a lockup, with owners' permission) under surveillance by the police for 3 months....and found it to be full of cake.

[Shade]

Isn't being a suspect cause enough to be shot in the head at point blank range while already restrained by a police officer these days, anyway? Or is that only if you are sporting an above-average tan? The whole innocent until proven guilty thing doesn't seem to hold much water lately

[Fineus]

Suspects being the operative word.  From what I recall, one suspect has already been released without charge, and the BBC visited one of the locations (a lockup, with owners' permission) under surveillance by the police for 3 months....and found it to be full of cake.

It's smoke and mirrors.

Public opinion starts to sway against the current government, they fabricate or pick that time to make arrests and claim they foiled a terrorist attack etc. to encourage people to think about other things and forget about the government for a while. They also take the oppertunity to impose some new "Big Brother" laws of oppression. It's a double blow every time.

What I find fascinating is that untill now (post 9/11) there was nowhere near this level of apparent terrorist threat. Did we just not notice before? Did 9/11 cause hundreds of average people to take up arms and become terrorists themselves? Or is the whole thing a convenient excuse to squeeze power out of the peoples hands and into those of the politicians/overlords.

[IceFire]

All nude planes I say!  That'll solve the problems.  We'll make the planes all clear too so everyone can see everything that everyone is doing.

[Sandwich]

What I find fascinating is that untill now (post 9/11) there was nowhere near this level of apparent terrorist threat. Did we just not notice before? Did 9/11 cause hundreds of average people to take up arms and become terrorists themselves?

Pre-911, most terrorist activity was in 3rd world countries (Africa, for example - where's the outcry over the thousands killed there?), or in Israel. While 911 may have been a wake-up call for the west to the dangers of terrorism, I also see it as a wake-up call to terrorists - they saw the potential terror they could inflict upon even the most powerful countries.

And with all the *****ing over how Israel's "disproportionate response" is only generating more terrorists, why do you prefer government conspiracy theories to 911 having inspired more terrorists to aim higher?

[Fineus]

I dare say that anything that happens in the middle-east can be pointed to generating more terrorists at the moment. You may be right about 9/11 showing terrorists what trouble they could make in the western world.

[karajorma]

All nude planes I say!  That'll solve the problems.  We'll make the planes all clear too so everyone can see everything that everyone is doing.

*books Icefire on a Saga holiday*

[aldo_14]

I dare say that anything that happens in the middle-east can be pointed to generating more terrorists at the moment. You may be right about 9/11 showing terrorists what trouble they could make in the western world.

I can't help but wonder how many ordinary Muslims were disgusted at what was being done 'in their name' at 9/11 and soforth.  Easy to assume the people shown celebrating on the streets (****s, the lot of them) are the majority, when in reality it's usually only the most vehement few percent (at most) people in a population you'd see out in the street.

[Sandwich]

Are these the vehement ones you're talking about? The ones protesting in your backyard?

[aldo_14]

And you think those are the majority, do you?

[Fineus]

You know... free speach is all good and well, but is it really right to keep someone in your country who publically wants to destroy that country?

I can't help but feel that if they hate Europe/The West so much, they should make a fine start by getting the hell out.

[Sandwich]

And you think those are the majority, do you?

You think they misrepresent Islam?

[aldo_14]

And you think those are the majority, do you?

You think they misrepresent Islam?

I notice you've not answered the question.

You know... free speach is all good and well, but is it really right to keep someone in your country who publically wants to destroy that country?

I can't help but feel that if they hate Europe/The West so much, they should make a fine start by getting the hell out.

Why not deport the BNP at the same time?  I mean, we don't view British citizens as being any less British due to their skin colour or religion, so the BNP are also trying to destroy the country.....unfortunately, we just can't kick out the ****s without destroying the basis of our own freedoms.

[Mefustae]

Are these the vehement ones you're talking about? The ones protesting in your backyard?
*snip*

Oh noes! There are people with offensive opinions! Head for the hills!

People like that have been are for a long, long time, and they're all over the world. They're called assholes, and you'd be hard-pressed to find a country without 'em. My mind wanders back to that video posted a month or two back showing an American Nazi-esque group protesting in New York or something [y'know, the unintentionally funny one with the guy yelling 'JEWS!!' a couple of times] as an example of people like this don't really prove anything, only that they're assholes.

And you think those are the majority, do you?

You think they misrepresent Islam?

I don't know the ins-and-outs of Islam, so I can't comment on whether protesting in the street about an impending 'European 9/11' is part of Islam, but i'm wondering if you are well-enough versed in Islam to comment on the relevance of those images. Seriously, i'm actually rather curious on what the religion itself says on the matter.

[karajorma]

You think they misrepresent Islam?

Considering that the Koran is no more violent than the Torah or Bible I'd say that your religions are all as bad as each other. Read into that whatever you wish

 There's a big difference between religion and culture.

[Sandwich]

I notice you've not answered the question.

True.

I think they currently represent a growing minority of British Muslims. When they represent a majority, you'll be in deep dish doo-doo.

World-wide, I honestly cannot say. I haven't been to any Muslim countries. But how often throughout history has it required a majority of people to screw things up?

You think they misrepresent Islam?

Considering that the Koran is no more violent than the Torah or Bible I'd say that your religions are all as bad as each other. Read into that whatever you wish

 There's a big difference between religion and culture.

In the West, perhaps there's a big difference. Not in the Mid-East.

And you obviously haven't read the Koran/Bible/Torah.

[IPAndrews]

And you think those are the majority, do you?

You think they misrepresent Islam?

QFT.

(I feel so urbran putting that )

[karajorma]

In the West, perhaps there's a big difference. Not in the Mid-East.

And you obviously haven't read the Koran/Bible/Torah.

You've completely contradicted yourself. The fact that there is a difference between a western and middle-eastern muslim pretty much proves my point that the problems are cultural not religious.

[vyper]

This all harks back to the point both myself and an0n made over at warpstorm - that these guys are schoolboys compared to the IRA - yet strangely they inspire more fear, in both the media, the government and as a result the population.

The sections of our society they claim to represent are even given special treatment so they don't feel "blamed". It's almost as if our own government is admitting to being afraid of them.

Perhaps its the medieval mindset, or the sheer suicidal fanaticism that allows for such over-reaction - but they don't have a long term strategy. They don't have an end-goal except religious dominance, which will never happen even if all western governments were to fall tomorrow.

The question is, how do we stem the tide of fanatics long enough for more moderate elements in the Islamic religion to take control, and for more liberal doctrines to take hold in the Islamic community? We're talking at least 25 years here (thats just for western societies, not arab nations).

I think the key is in refusing to refer to Muslims in the UK as "British Muslims" and rather just British nationals. Remove the religious divide that is planted in our everyday language, and thus remind those in Islamic communities that when these people attack, they're attacking all of us and remind non-muslims of the same thing.

These guys are dangerous, but foolish. They're no different from the people who locked Galileo Galilei up.

Of course, tackling the religious divide in the UK means facing an uncomfortable truth (uncomfortable for many people anyway) - that our (Modern British) culture is in effect "better" than that of orthodox islamic communities.